Game over or keep playing?????????
 

Long time reader-first time poster.
Situation: Bottom of 6th. 2 outs, 3-2 count Batter checks her swing......or did she - P/U asks B/U "Did she go" B/U signals swing. Now the tricky part-
Games are 1:15 time limit. When the ball crossed the plate there was still time on the clock ( 2 seconds ), by the time the B/U signled swing time had expired. I've asked many differant umps whose opion I value & the opions have been split, Some say, game over out was made after time had expired, others saying the strike out occured with time on the clock & since it was a correctable situation go to the 7th. What do you think?:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm inclined to say that the inning ended when the BU indicated "SWING" = game over.

Different but same?: Time expired 2 seconds AFTER a 3rd out, but defense properly dead ball appeals an advantageous 4th out after time has expired. (Oh goodness, there it is again.) By Rule 1's "Inning - ...A new inning begins after the final out of the previous inning," I would state that the game is over (since it doesn't say "after the 3rd out.").

Start a new game....Game over

Two points:

1. What would have happened if the PU had not gone for help? Ball 4, runner at first, next batter. Time would expire during this activity and you finish the inning.

2. This batter is not out until a call is made that puts her out. Since the PU is asking for help on the check swing, he has most likely judged the pitch a ball. The batter is not out until the BU declares that she swung for the third strike.

Either way....time has expired, ball game is over.

What a stupid time limit. :rolleyes:

Who was it that said...."It ain't an out 'til I calls it an out"?


Final out occured when BU said "yes". Game over!

time limit too long?

Why is everything that is different from your area "stupid". This is becoming an annoying trend from you.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The out occurs when the out occurs, cliches not withstanding. The out does not occur when it's called. In fact, there are outs that we don't call (obvious fly balls, etc).

So if you are going by the book here, you have another inning.

I suspect, however, that 95% of the umpires you come across will not notice the time on the clock at the moment of the check swing (whether the not-noticing is intentional or not is probably split fairly evenly).

I dont agree - the clock doesnt stop during any other "ask for help", so it wouldnt stop in the last seconds either. Its as legit a use of time to go for help on this as it is to appeal. The out here does not occur til the BU signals strike on the help. PU calls ball then goes for help.

Your interpretation leads to a soccer like scenario where time would get added on for this or that throughout the game, thus making life suck :)

The crux of the question is: When does the out occur - when it's called or when the event being called happens.

Similar to a timing play, right...

So extend your logic to this scenario:

0-2 count, 1 out. R1 on 3rd, R2 on 3rd. Batter checks, R2 is stealing. Catcher throws down to 2nd, R2 is caught in a rundown, R1 takes off and scores well before R2 is out. NOW, F2 asks for an appeal and BU (right or wrong) rings up the batter.

So when, now, did the strikeout occur? Right then when it was appealed? If so, no run - the 3rd out occurred before BR reached first base. (Absurd, right?). No, the out "occurred" back when he swung for the 3rd strike, meaning the third out was actually R2. Run scores.

Same logic in the OP. The out occurs when the 3rd strike occurs, regardless of how long it takes to call it.

I disagree with you on when it occurs.

Its not an out until its called. Its not the act, its the call, especially if there is a completely valid use of time between time.

Now if theres a check swing and the ump goes and gets a burger and comes back and calls strike, thats not a valid use of time

but in your scenario, all that play was valid and part of the game and the clock would not have stopped in inning 1 any more than it would in the wanning moments.

I see no logic or reality to "Its not an out until its called"

An appeal of a force out is based on when the force was "in force"; the out still occurs when the play is made.
A runner crossing the plate in the instant between the BR being beaten to 1st by the ball and the umpire's call or signal does not score.
If a play occurs that results in an out, but it is not determined to be an out unti after consultation with an UIC; it still happened when it happened and no umpiring delay changes that.

An out is an out, umpires just announce what happened. Even on a timing play or dead ball appeal, the out occurred during play, not later when the umpire rules.

After some editing, an excellent discussion question in itself, even though the right answer was posted with the question.

Then what would you do if during a play at 2B, the throw clearly beats the runner and the tag is made before a runner crosses the plate. However, the umpire delays his call looking for the ball. By the time the ball is presented and the BU rules the runner out, the runner has crossed the plate.

Score the run?

The out occurs when the play occurs. The fact that there was a hesitation in the declaration of the out should be irrelevant to the application of corresponding rules.

R2 out for passing R1. Dead ball and R1 out on the interference of R2 continuing to run (backwards) and drawing a throw. Now, what was your question? :D ;) :rolleyes: :cool:

Hopefully, F5 gets the ball and tags R2, second out. ;)

Welcome!
I realize you were setting a scenario as to when the inning is over, but still, unless the clock is on the scoreboard, which of us is going to call for another inning with 2 sec left? Not me. :rolleyes:

I was hoping no one would pick on him about that, but R2 can't pass R1 while stealing 2nd, even if from 3rd. :p
And R2 better be getting back to 2nd, no INT. :p :D

No, time limit is wayyyy to short. 6 innings in 1:15. :eek: I say more like 2 hour limit.

1:00 to an 1:30 seems to be the norm for softball. Most of the games I work don't even go 2:00 for a 7 inning game.

I looked for the phrase "valid use of time" in all of my books and can't find it. ;)

Seriously - this is a faulty way of looking at things, but if this is your opinion, would you nullify the run in the hypothetical I posted? Are you also saying that on a timing play, the timing of the CALL is what you go by as opposed to the timing of the out itself? This is just wrong.

Ouch. Quite a typo, that.

Nice of you to Say So. I'll alert all the local leagues I work with that YOU have deemed 2 hours the proper time.

Instead of calling something for which you know nothing (the list grows...) "Stupid", perhaps you should ask about the reasoning behind what you would consider a very short time limit.

Then those of us who've done this for more than 8 minutes could enlighten you. In my case, most of the league games are played during the week and in the evening. We are a bit on the outskirts, so asking anyone to make a game before 6 is unreasonable. Asking the kids (anywhere from 6 to 16) to be out past 10 is also unreasonable. So by your law, we could never play 2 in an evening. 1:15 is short, but in MOST games the outcome is pretty well determined by then.

With the older girls, the JV often plays at 6, with the varsity showing up to play at 7:30. No time limit on the varsity, but we're NEVER going to hold up the varsity game so we can play a longer JV game --- so 1:15 is often what they play as well (if the visitor is close, sometimes we get going by 5:30, and use 1:45 time limit).

So, as you can see, sometimes 1:15 is the BEST of all possible solutions among a list of unideal choices. Far from STUPID.

Just completed a national where all games were 1:40 limit, including championship and if.

Most games which timed out did so in the 7th inning. Those few which timed out earlier involved two weak teams or were extremely lopsided.

If your norm is 2 hours to complete 6 innings, I feel sorry for you.

I hadnt thought the statement through to be all inclusive...

so in your instance you are correct, in the OP, its game over IMO

Me either, but the theory discussion was interesting.

If I show up and its 110 drop dead.. i know its gonna be a good day

"Game over" in the OP means the out did not occur until called/announced.
How is that consistent?

Just so I'm clear
 

-By the logic of the discussion, we're saying that on dead ball appeal play, the out is occurring when the umpire rules on it, correct? (I.E. A runner missing second base on the way to third is appealed after TIME is called, and is subsequently ruled out - this did not become an out until ruled upon, correct?)

OK, so if the OP's play happened in the first inning and in the last seconds of the game the coach says to you "but blue you delayed 20 seconds in the first inning on a call that was overturned"

You would give him that time added on at the end?

I'm saying you have to be consistent with time management and the play that happened, happened, the clock didnt stop.

In timed games I have stopped the clock, like when a player got hurt and it was clear excessive time was going to be used, and i did it just to be fair.

In the case above, the clock didnt stop just because the original call was overturned by help.

Timing plays are just that and a specific thing. I made a incorrect statement that was easily shown to be false with an UNRELATED play; however, the logic I used to address the OP still stands IMO.

Almost exactly... although it's conceivable that this difference MAY be important if timing was VERY close - the out occurs when the APPEAL occurs (such as in the case of a live ball appeal at 2nd on a failed tagup ... when the ball hits F6's glove), not the second or two later when BU signals the out.

Remember - in ANY of these cases, we are merely announcing results - the timing of the event we are ruling on is what is important, not the timing of when we announce the decision. The difference in timing is usually negligible, but in the cases of "Show me the ball!!!" and "Did he go?" the timing is not negligible.

Now I think you're just trolling. You know that's not the case...

No, the logic you used to address the OP hinges on the mistaken thought that it is the ANNOUNCEMENT of the out that matters, when in ALL cases, it is the EVENT that caused such announcement that matters.

the trolling comment was lame. For some reason I thought you might could do better than that in a debate.

Now,

The EVENT here is a INITIAL CALL, followed by ACTION, followed by a SECOND CALL on the original call. That is the total even. There isnt separate events, its all one event.

All of the time used was perfectly legitimate. The clock didnt stop after the initial call here anymore than it would at any other point in the game. Youre changing a running clock simply because of the time remaining. We dont roll back a clock/stop the clock at ANY OTHER point because of an appeal/help/overturned call.. yet you are making the argument we do so just because of time remaining. thats inconsistent.

It seems like this is getting a bit convoluted with unecessary items thrown into the mix. The crux of the ruling should be the answer to the question of when the out occurred.

Wade -

The book says that a new inning begins after the final out of the previous inning. (Rule 1)

When ruling on an appeal play, the out is not happening until the appeal is asked and ruled upon.

When GOING FOR HELP/REQUESTING ASSISTANCE from another umpire on the field, the out is happening at the time of the play - not at the time of the ruling.

The example plays earlier given, I think, were very good examples of why this makes sense - i.e. the out occurs when the out occurs, not when the umpire signals it after winding up for a punchout, etc. - or the other example of an obvious out on a caught fly ball - although I've been taught - contrary to baseball mechanics - to signal on every caught fly ball or obvious out, regardless of how obvious it is - say it takes an umpire who went out on the fly ball 5 steps to stop running before they signal the catch -- the out occurred when the fielder caught the ball - not when the umpire signaled the out.

thats the part that convolutes it..

You guys are retroactively stopping the clock. Going back and adding time on the game in a soccer manner. "Well because of this play I'll go back"

The out doesnt matter, the thing that matters is that live ball play continued past the expiration of the clock, a play was reversed on dead ball appeal, and, according to some of you, the clock adjusted to the play.

since this doesnt happen at any other point in the game, it cant happen. the clock doesnt stop, time doesnt get added on. this isnt football or soccer.

If you adjust the clock here, why wouldnt it be adjusted in any other inning?

You cant just make up a new rule.

That's just it - it's not a dead ball appeal. It's not an appeal at all. It's "going for help." You're interchanging those two things. The example previously given on going for help on a check swing after runners have advanced and a run scored disproves what you're insinuating. It doesn't matter what occurred between the batter offering at the pitch and the umpire ruling swing - the swing, and subsequent 3rd out occurred before any of that happened.

Maybe it was lame... but it was in response to a pretty absurd stretch of someone else's point.

Yes - it's all one event - but that point is irrelevant.

Second time you've brought this up. I don't know what the difference might be in your mind between legitimate and illegitimate time, but it is completely irrelevant. How a particular stretch of time is "used" has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

Right - the clock doesn't ever stop. What's your point?

I'm making no such argument. I'm not suggesting we roll back anything. (Perhaps this misunderstanding of my point is what led you to the statement that I labelled trolling earlier). The clock doesn't stop. So what.

What matters is two things:
1) An inning begins IMMEDIATELY after the 3rd out of an inning occurs.
2) The third out occurs when it occurs, not when it's called.

Very simple really. In the OP, the 3rd out OCCURRED before time expired. No clock rolling required - when did the out occur is the ONLY question you need worry yourself about.

For some reason, you're obsessed with the clock. No one is adding time to the clock or reversing time at all. Forget the clock for a minute.

The timing of an out coincides with the moment of occurence of that out. Not the time it was announced by the umpire. This is consistent throughout any time that TIMING is important. When deciding whether an out occurred before or after another event (such as a runner scoring, or yes - such as the end of the game due to time constraints), it is the timing of the out occurring that matters, not the time that the umpire announces it.

In the OP, it is very simple - the third out occurred before time ran out. The fact that the clock continued running and ran out before the umpire was able to announce the out is immaterial.

The thing that kills me here is that in your logic, had the PU ruled that the batter swung, he would have called the out before time expired and you'd go to another inning - but because the umpire failed to notice or recognize the swing, and only upon appeal did the strike get called, you feel it's fair to end the game. In other words, the only thing causing the game to end is the delayed call. That's wrong on every level.

Any chance there are only two seconds left on this topic?

tick, tick :)

It aint out until the Ump calls it !

Nice cliche - too bad it's wrong - and completely misleading in so many ways.

Well !
When does a strike out occur ?
When the ball goes over the plate
When the ball hits the glove of the catcher
When the Ump decides it is a strike
When the Ump indicates a strike

When does a catch occur
When the ball is held in the glove or hand
When the Ump decides it meets the definition of a catch
When the Ump indicates an out

mcrowder
You obviously say when the out occurs and thats true but isnt that at the same time as the Ump decides its out .
What are you doing up at this hour .
Here in New Zealand 7-50 am 0 degress (celcius ) snow on the hills around
5 weeks to the first game although I am calling a practice game or what you guys call a scrimmage (I think) this weekend

The answers to your questions are in the ASA Rule Book.

Refer to 7-6-A through S "Batter is Out" and 8-2-A through N "Batter-Runner is Out." Specifically, note the absence of any such phrase "and when the umpire signals/calls OUT" in each subsection.

It aint out till the Ump DECIDES its out then .
So if a runner slides into a base and is tagged , we hold our call , get the picture (ball , runner, fielder ) decide (we have an out ) then indicate .
The tag occurred 2 seconds before the time was up but the out was after .
Game over .

So wrong.

So ... Runners on first and third, 2 outs. R2 heads for second base, but holds up as the throw comes in. R2 is tagged, 1 second later, R1 scores, and 1 second after that, the BU (perhaps there was a "show me the ball!!! or somesuch) rings up R2.

Run or no run?

The out occurs WHEN IT OCCURS, not when the umpire announces it. Read your rule again.

I'm going to hope, by use of the last smiley, that he/she is kidding.

IMO, very succinct and to the point. All the umpire is doing is calling the play that has already happend - tagging the runner out.

Interesting .
So if the tag is made there is an out .
Now if the Ump didnt see the tag we still have an out do we ?
We have to rule on various situations and until we rule it is nothing .

No, in the umpire's best judgement, there was no tag so his ruling on the play that just happened would be SAFE.

You guys are getting so balled up in side issues, you've completely lost track of the original question.

On plays where the timing of the out matters, the time that matters is when the players made the out, not when the umpire called the out. Just in case it needs to be pointed out again, the players make the out on an appeal play when they make a proper appeal. And, again, just in case it needs to be pointed out again, when umpires consult with each other to get the call right, this does not affect when the players actually made the out.

Side issues about judgment, about umpiring mechanics, (e.g. not rushing the call) etc. have no bearing whatsoever on the question at hand.

And, for the most absurd argument made in this thread, there is no time being added to the clock. Most timed games must complete an inning that has started. The inning started before time expired, since the inning started with the final out of the previous inning.

But, as I said before, I don't keep game time with seconds precision. Two seconds remain = time expired as far as I am concerned.

You are quite right .
I was being facetious or an arsehole whatever you want me to be .
But at the end of the day
The game is OVER and so should this thread

Sorry... I missed your humor. :o

Good luck on declaring the thread over. Cecil already tried.