Believe It or Not

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

ugh what kind of umpires are those. dang. On number 2 there...thats bad. BR should be called out for leaving baseline/abondonment, and there should then be one out, bases still loaded. Umps kinda cost the defensive team the game. What is the world of baseball/softball coming too?

To start, this isn't baseball. It is ASA softball.

Secondly, there is no rule forbidding a runner to deviate from a baseline or abandoning a base.

On a walk, the runners forced by the award are entitled to advance without liability of being put out. (8.5.A)

The umps didn't cost anyone anything. Just because the BR failed to advance to and touch 1B is a separate issue handled through an appeal.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, this isn't baseball. It is ASA softball.

Secondly, there is no rule forbidding a runner to deviate from a baseline or abandoning a base.

On a walk, the runners forced by the award are entitled to advance without liability of being put out. (8.5.A)

The umps didn't cost anyone anything. Just because the BR failed to advance to and touch 1B is a separate issue.

OP: "BR goes into dugout ". That makes the BR out, but nothing the defense can do about the other runners.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

OP: "BR goes into dugout ". That makes the BR out, but nothing the defense can do about the other runners.

You are correct. I got tied up in the "appeal" issue of the umpires leaving the field.

Once the BR enters the dugout, the force of any runner is alleviated assuming the umpires would rule her out.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

ugh what kind of umpires are those. dang. On number 2 there...thats bad. BR should be called out for leaving baseline/abondonment, and there should then be one out, bases still loaded. Umps kinda cost the defensive team the game. What is the world of baseball/softball coming too?

LL, Pah-lease. Pot... Kettle ....

On a base on balls, the BR is awarded first base, and all forced runners allowed to advance 1 base without liability to be put out. These runners did advance, apparently. BR can be called out for abandonment (Um, what are you talking about: "BR should be called out for leaving baseline"????), but even so, you simply have an out at first base. If this hadn't been the winning run, play on, with runners at 2nd and 3rd, and one out. I can't even imagine what rule an umpire would pull out of his backside to have 1 out, bases still loaded in a sitch like this. Care to enlighten me?

[scottk_61]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

When I first got into ASA, I heard of stories coming back from the nationals in Southern Alabama, where, "we got treated like kings. They rinsed and dried our shirts in between games and would clean our shoes for us."

I also heard stories of a national in Orlando with a new beautiful field, but the building wasn't completed. It was near 100º and the "umpire locker room" was the equipment shed.

With the risk of getting the latter, I have stated that I am not interested in a national whenever folks discuss them with me.

I haver been to Alabama many times, and so far I have never heard of another state that treats the umpires so well.

The Orlando site is another one that I have been to many many times, the umpire room is STILL a metal storage shed though it does have a small amount of air conditioning.

If you get a chance, go to a National and carry water, you learn and get to socialize.
Nothing is ever perfect at a National and remember, we umpires are a NECESSARY EVIL to the coaches and players as well as the TDs. Live with it.
I have been to too many National Council meeting where the opinions are voiced that umpires should be done away with.
Players and coaches don't understand the rules nor do they learn them, ie the rules are unimportant and so must the umpires be.

If you want to work games, learn to blow off the bad stuff and enjoy the good.

This is being said by a world class b***ching machine, so I think I am qualified to comment.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You are correct. I got tied up in the "appeal" issue of the umpires leaving the field.

Once the BR enters the dugout, the force of any runner is alleviated assuming the umpires would rule her out.

Well, this would only have an effect if BR was called out prior to the run scoring, and even then, the ball is still live. It would take an odd confluence of events to prevent the runner at 3rd from scoring (BR called out AND R1 tagged before reaching home). And even then, the wording of the rule still allows forced runners to advance without liability to be put out - I think you'd have an interesting argument on your hands if this actually happened - BR called out for entering the dugout and a tag of R1 prior to touching home.

But even so, there is NOTHING that would send the runners back to their original bases.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by scottk_61

Nothing is ever perfect at a National and remember, we umpires are a NECESSARY EVIL to the coaches and players as well as the TDs. Live with it.

Of course, that is "NECESSARY EVIL"

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Well, this would only have an effect if BR was called out prior to the run scoring, and even then, the ball is still live. It would take an odd confluence of events to prevent the runner at 3rd from scoring (BR called out AND R1 tagged before reaching home). And even then, the wording of the rule still allows forced runners to advance without liability to be put out - I think you'd have an interesting argument on your hands if this actually happened - BR called out for entering the dugout and a tag of R1 prior to touching home.

But even so, there is NOTHING that would send the runners back to their original bases.

This is a perfect application of Rule 10. Put the runners back on base as the defense should not be penalized for indifference to the runner from 3rd being forced on the walk. Especially late in Championship play.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

This is a perfect application of Rule 10. Put the runners back on base as the defense should not be penalized for indifference to the runner from 3rd being forced on the walk. Especially late in Championship play.

Aww c'mon Tony. The defense is being punished for the inability to throw a strike when the bases are loaded and the batter has a three ball count.

[Bluefoot]

Well then, anytime the offense walks with the bases loaded, F2 should tag R1 coming from 3B before R1 scores, just in case BR4 gets called out as in this thread's example.

Does the BR4 being called out for entering the team area negate the force on the other three runners to advance to their respective next bases? (or are they still entitled to advance without liability to be put out?)

If they are not entitled to advance without liability, then why shouldn't the defense try and tag the other runners 'out' before they arrive at the bases that they were originally forced to when BR4 walked, just in case a BR4 gets put out before reaching 1B as in this example? That way, the defense has a double or triple play (in waiting) in case BR4 is put out prior to reaching 1B. Now that sounds silly.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by argodad

Aww c'mon Tony. The defense is being punished for the inability to throw a strike when the bases are loaded and the batter has a three ball count.

By the way, PU kicked the call. It was down the middle and belt high.

And I didn't forget the smilies this time!

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by LMan

If that is the third out, you are correct. Read the OP again.

Smart me. Got it. Thank you.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

Does the BR4 being called out for entering the team area negate the force on the other three runners to advance to their respective next bases? (or are they still entitled to advance without liability to be put out?)

I believe I already answered this question. Any runner forced to advance due to a batter being awarded a base on balls is entitled to advance to the next base without liability to be put out. There is nothing in the rule which negates this advance if the BR fails to safely reach 1B. (8.5.A)

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

This is a perfect application of Rule 10. Put the runners back on base as the defense should not be penalized for indifference to the runner from 3rd being forced on the walk. Especially late in Championship play.

Wow.

No, that's an obscene misuse of rule 10. Inventing your own rules where rules already exist that cover the situation.

Very Very Very simple - on a base on balls, the BR is awarded first base and all (ALL!!!) forced runners are entitled to advance to the next base without liability to be put out. Don't forget this is a live ball - had this not been the winning run, all THREE runners could have scored, although only the 1st without liability to be put out. Heck, with no previous outs, perhaps a smart coach would tell all three to score if defense was not paying attention. So even if BR is called out for abandonment, and R1 called out for missing home, the next run would STILL win the game for them.

There is NO RULE, and no logic, that would force runners who advanced both A) without liability to be put out and B) during a live ball to return to the bases where they were when the ball was pitched, merely due to a subsequent out on BR - the 1st out of the inning.

Honestly, I'm amazingly flabbergasted that you suggested this, Tony, as 99% of the time you are posting great responses on these things.

[tcannizzo]

mcrowder,

The UIC at the Nationals did not give the same response you just did. He said to the coach that he understood the concern, but that there was nothing he could do about it because the umpires had left the field. To me this implies that there was something more than what you are offering.

Otherwise, he woulda/shoulda said, hey, the ballgame was over either way. But he didn't, therefore leaving the wound open.

As for my logic, Rule 10 allows the umpire to make a ruling on a rule that does not exist. If runners are allowed to advance without liability to be put out because of a force on an awarded base to BR. The force was removed. The defense could have made a triple play on this as R1 and R2 were just "walking" to their awarded bases.

I could not just stand by and allow the game to end that way. I would put the runners back on the base and invoke Rule 10. I would defer to the UIC if and only IF the offense lodged a protest to my ruling. Then if the UIC would have told me that I have misapplied Rule 10, I would have graciously made the correct call. But down the marrow in my bones, I believe the game would not have been over at that point.

I may be wrong, but I never advertised that I was perfect.