Call
 

Bases loaded, two outs, tied score,10th inning.

Ball four is called on the batter who proceeds to celebrate. PU steps around to the front of the plate to watch R1 score while her teammates joined in the batter's celebration a few feet up the first base line.

Defense coach approaches the plate umpire and protests that the BR never touched 1B. Okay, DMC, should have waited.

When the celebrating players hear the coach, a couple shove the batter toward 1B.

Your call. Game over or are you going to the 11th?

What time is it and do I need a bathroom break? LOL

I hope I didn't see the assist (once again, kidding), but if I did, I'm taking the out, since it sounds like an assisted runner.

Play on.

Going to the 11th, 12th..... BR out on runner assistance, not reaching 1B safely, no runs score.

Were the players who assisted the other 2 runners?

Does the way "teammates joined in the batter's celebration a few feet up the first base line" constitute gathering to hinder the defense?

Are you out for being assisted during an awarded base?

First, there is no reference to what rules governed the game. Second, cite the rule that says an AWARDED base would not count if the B/R didn't legally attain 1B.

Bob

Coaches guess...Not touching base is a live ball appeal and runners may advance; proper appeal should be by player with ball stepping on base, I think...run counts, game over(?). Notice my lack of conviction...:rolleyes:

I don't believe we have a live ball here, subsequently, unless the BR or one of the other Rs abandoned the field the run scores.

My stab:
Depends - is the ball live or not? (i.e.: is this SP or FP?)

Speaking ASA, FP
-An awarded base on balls is still a live ball (8.1.c.effect.1)
-There are no runners behind the BR, so in order to be assisted by another runner, someone had to have been passed. I have an out. (8.7.d)
-If the BR was assisted by anyone other than another runner, then I have an out. (8.7.e)

On to the next inning.


If SP,
-An awarded base on balls is a dead ball. (8.1.c.effects.2-4)
-Can't call an out on passing the runner, since the ball is dead. 8.7.d
-Assisting the runner only applies to a live ball situation, so no out here. (8.7.e)

Count the run. Game over.

Bob - only the BR is actually awarded a base. The forced runners are allowed to "advance without liability to be put out", but are not AWARDED their next base.

Speaking Fed
The BR is out
8-6-5
A runner is out when anyone other than another runner physically assists the runner while the ball is in play

Granted, this does not refer to a BR but other rules in 8-6 are applied to BR's so I would apply this one as well

To answer Dakota's question, If the other 2 runners were the ones assisting I suppose she is safe. That scenario seems so TW though.

I sort of pictured that exception to mean a trailing runner can help someone to her feet or push her to the next base in the event of a fall or a lapse in running.

I thought about that but R3 would be coming over from 2B and and R2 from 3B All they are doing is establishing a very unusual base path. If they returned to the position between home and 1B by retouching their previously occupied bases and ended up behind the BR, then she passed them otherwise, I don't think so. That is why I put that it would be very TW in the other post.

I interpreted the OP as runner on 3rd scoring before batter was 'assisted'. Play still live. Run counts. Runner then was assisted...runner out. Doesn't chronology count in this sitch?

Nope. BR always needs to legally attain first base for any runs to score, unless there's a special league rule regarding BR's not having to run out home runs.

Bell ... if the BR is out, then no runs score. No run can score on a play where the 3rd out is made on the BR prior to reaching first base or any other runner on a force play.

The question is ... is the runner out for being assisted in this sitch.

To me, all indicators lead toward a yes, and an 11th inning. But Mike has been accused of trickery in the past, and there may be something else to this.

(Note - I don't believe Passing is at all at issue here).

I think it is as simple as it appears. No run can score if 3rd out is batter-runner not safely reaching first; and it seems clear that BR was illegally assisted. In softball, we have a new inning.

I believe baseball states all forced runners are also awarded the next base (as opposed to may advance without liability to be put out UNLESS....). That may be where bluezebra Bob got his thought process.

Posted by "Johnny-one-rule". :D

<b>Defense coach approaches the plate umpire and protests that the BR never touched 1B. Okay, DMC, should have waited.</b>

Appears time had been called, or should have been......Would appear to time out....Score the run

Agree with CecilOne, has to be ASA with Mike posting.....

A lot of quick responses. Let's move to the next step:

NPF, celebrating teammates were not the runners.

I might be going to the bottom of the 10th
BR is still out

Does NPF use ASA rules? I guess this must have actually happened, and it looks like assistance, then again what about Glen's time out or not.
Didn't think they were the runners, but back to my question about teammates gathering in the way of the defense.

See it's plays like this that piss me off! I don't believe the intent was to "assist" the runner but I know you can't judge intent on this. They were excited and were just getting the player to go to first - so they probably just shoved her "playfully". The only runners that matter in this are the runners at first and third - they must complete there journey to the next base. They are probably out by rule, but I'm gonna try to figure a way out of calling the out - if I can't figure a way out, next inning.

I didn't see any assistance to the BR. :) :D

Seems to me if you werent quick enough to yell "ball game" and beat feet during a celebration - ya gotta ring up the br and prepare for a new inning.
BR is out (INT)
The run doesnt count due to out at 1B

even if not, would be out on appeal. So the BR is out 6 ways from sunday but either way

You are screwed :)

Thats my guess.

I think that by the book this is a clear cut out.

I also understand that by all standards of fairness, most umpires would not WANT to call this out, and for good reason.

My only question that might give us some wiggleroom here is the word "assist". During an awarded base, is a gentle shove in the general direction of the awarded base really assisting? Absent a printed definition in the rulebook we are left to using dictionary definitions of words. Assisting someone is aiding them in achieving a goal. Since this is an awarded base, and BR was not debilitated in any way, could it be determined (within the framework of umpire judgement at least) by the umpire that such a shove, even if in the right direction, was not assisting the runner? IOW, did the shove actually help the runner achieve the base? Would it not have been just as easy for the runner to achieve the base if the shove was in the wrong direction? Was anything actually done during said shove to actually ASSIST here?

I don't know --- I'm just throwing that out there.

A semi-myth?. Does anyone know when and where someone came up with the idea that the words "ball game" carried some magic meaning?

To the best of my knowledge, only the NCAA acknowledges an umpire terminating a game by declaring "GAME". Anyone aware of any other association where these words have meaning?

I believe NCAA allows a coach to make a dead-ball appeal. That's why the it was a DMC. The ball wasn't dead and it tipped off the offense.

It's quite possible that the umpire would have let the assist go if the defense had not brought attention to the BR not yet advancing to 1B. The celebrating teammates did indeed literally push her toward 1B while telling her she had to touch the base.

The NPF follows NCAA rules.

Well when i say it it means game over, and thats no myth and thats ASA. In timed tourneys I'll usually say "time has expired" if we are continuing play after time has expired and "thats the ball game" if its finished (drop dead etc).

I have NO CLUE why you would think this is a myth. Or actually, no clue as to whatchu talkin bout willis.

As to your scenario.. it wouldnt matter with the coaches appeal IMO unless you werent there. If it was just game over and you were still on the field you'd have to allow the dead ball appeal.. if it was live ball its out by INT. Pretty simple scenario actually.

Dont complicate it by pretending saying "thats the ball game" to end a game is a myth. Its just words used..of many which could be used.. and could not possibly be a myth.

OUt of curiosity though, which words do you believe you have been allowed to use by the immortal ASA to end a game?

"Am I correct that you have no sub for the ejected player?"

It wouldn't matter if a "game" is stated in NCAA, or "ball game" in any game. The point is that no words create the end of a game or supercede the right of the defense to make an appeal while the umpires are still on the field.

You are the plate umpire when the apparent winning run crosses the plate in the bottom of the seventh. You decide to declare your "ball game" (and probably even give the nonsignal that actually means "end of quarter" in football, not end of game, which so many seem to want to do). But, the third baseman now appeals that the winning run missed third base; and she did. Are you trying to assert that the appeal will be ignored because you said "ball game"?? You better read ASA POE #1, 1.E.3.

The same applies in NCAA, even if the umpire declares the game.

Professional players. They should know the game. OUT.

As to whether or not it was an assist, the assist was not in helping an injured player, but in keeping the BR from (for example) entering the dugout without having touched 1B.

:rolleyes:
Nope.. I never said that. I think you guys are reaching to make something out of this easy scenario; especially when 1/2 of what i said was cherry picked to make a moot point. Maybe think up a harder scenario if you must nit pick through the responses of this one to make this into a difficult scenario.

"Thats the ball game" is just words...YOU BETTER reread my original post and then my subsequent response as many times as you need to to see that I never said what you guys are inventing... and in fact said exactly what you guys are saying.

Sorry, but it's not ASA. Nowhere in Rule 5 or the Umpire Manual (End of Game Procedures, page 204) is there any mention of an umpire declaring the game over with any word or phrase.

Because there are people out there, including umpires, that honestly believe that such a declaration is like a judge striking a gavel. I've heard the arguments on both side. "but the blue never said 'ball game' so it isn't over yet", or "you said 'ball game', so the games over. They cannot appeal something after the game's over".

Agree, but in my scenario, the BR is still active and the ball live.

But it is a myth in some sets of rules such as ASA. It has no meaning, purpose or standing in the procedures ending a game. Even in NCAA where the rule book notes the umpire should declare "GAME", the umpires must still accept appeals/protests submitted in a timely fashion as the rules may permit. For all intent, the rule book ends the game, not any word or phrase.

I'll type this slowly. i dont want you to miss it, i've typed it several times before but you missed it.

Ok .. here goes.. slowly

"thats the ball game is just words"

its words used.. thats all.

Got it?

Im sure you just wisp away without any words and sneak off the ball field or perhaps announce

"we are presently in a dead ball period prior to my depature upon which signifies the end of the game"

but I just say "thats the ball game"

If theres an appeal while i'm there, i deal with that.

Scary stuff there Wade, but I'll only address this part...

There are no words that magically end the game. PU calling "Ballgame!" may be a polite way of informing the players, coaches, fans, etc that the ballgame is in fact over. But it is not A) necessary or B) authoritative. If an umpire utters this when the ballgame is not in fact over, the game is simply not over. If an umpire fails to utter this when the game IS in fact over, the game is still over.

The game ends itself. It's really that simple. The game is over when it ends. Words by the umpire do not effect that, they only publicize it.

Then what did you mean by, "When I say it ("ballgame!") it means the game is over"?

So Mike, is there a trick here, or are we headed to the next inning?

Nope, you didnt read far enough into my response. You cherry picked one sentence. try again

Try what again? You seem to think I'm trying to prove a point or win an argument, or am in some way out to get you.

Instead, I'm asking you a question. What did you mean by that? Obviously (to me), that's where I began to misunderstand your point.

This scenario occured on the 7/15 game between Philadelphia and New England. Stephanie VanBrackle of Philadelphia team (sp?) was the BR. The described the events as offered to me by the PU. The out was called and the game moved to the next inning. Philadelphia won the game in the 11th.

The Philly coach argued the point with the standard, "we are trying to get people in the seats" and the "this isn't the type of call" yada, yada, yada.

PU told the coach that neither the umpires or coaches get to chose which rules they enforce and when. From what I understand, the chief of the crew filed his report on the spot and the team owner was not happy....with the team! No problem with the umpiring. :)

So tell us Mike, oh great guru of The Official Forum, do you concur with the ruling on the field??:D

Once you revealed this was professional ball, I was wondering about something like this.

It is certainly not a call that "sells" the game - to the casual fan, it would appear to be a bit arcane or technical, and it takes away the "obvious win."

MLB used to have a tradition to ignore this kind of situation, until it was actually called in a fairly important game - maybe even a world series??? I don't remember the details... even though I think they were posted here or one of the other umpire boards fairly recently.

As anal as I can be, what do you think? :rolleyes: It was the call prescribed by the rules. The umpire did what the league pays her to do. As I said, it may have very well been overlooked had the defensive coach not raised the issue.

Semantics. If a runner is allowed to "advance without liability to be put out", isn't that an 'award'?

Bob

It was a rhetorical question!:)

Even if a player is awarded a base, I don't believe that absolves them from the responsibilty of properly completing their base running duties. If the OP, the runner, although awarded first base, did not properly complete her base running responsibilities. Since the BR did not successfully reach first base before being declared out, the run can't score.

I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.

What if there were no rhetorical questions? ;)

hmmmmmm, was that a . . . ahhh, nevermind!

Hey Dakota,

You come up with some funny stuff! :) :D ...Several on the board do from time to time, but IMO you're a notch or two above all. Keep adding some smiles :) to the board because it has a way of breaking down some friction among the good group of guys and ladies posting here. ..Nothin' like fun at the ole' ball park! .Al

I can recall when Mark McGuire broke the HR record (not to open another can of worms :eek: ) and, when celebrating at first base, was directed by the first base coach with a point (and a push?) to touch the base.

Not softball, but certainly a parallel situation. Was he 'assisted' to the base that he may have otherwise missed? I know that it wasn't called nor any objections registered by the defense.

I will say that, IMO, the call was correct. NPF follows NCAA rules with some modifications.

Rule 9, Sec10d - Coach Interference: A coach or anyone other than another runner... may not physically assist (e.g., touch, hold, push) a base runner while the ball is in play.

OP = bases loaded walk (ball is in play) and a player touches (forget about possibly directs/pushes) the BR to advance to first.

Way off topic, but that's adding myth to myth.

I've been an attorney for going on eighteen years now, spending nearly every working day of that time in the criminal courts.

In all that time, I've seen a judge strike a gavel exactly once. And that was to quiet down spectators. Most courtrooms I've been in don't even have gavels on the bench. At least in central Illinois, judges don't gavel cases open or closed any more.

Just FYI.