B/R digging out a grounder gets to 1st base just before the ball arrives. Problem, B/R left foot is fully on the white side of the double base bag when the ball arrives.

Do You

A. ring her up as the white side of the bag doesn't exist for the runner on this play and she has not passed the base in which would call for a live ball appeal

B. Safe and wait for the live ball appeal since she did touch the white before the ball arrived


Thanks for Replies

Don

Speaking ASA
 

Safe pending appeal & the appeal must be made before the BR returns to 1B.

ASA 8-2M

Speaking ASA.....

Dakota 100% correct.

Speaking AFA.....

For initial play at first we have just
one large base. If base touched prior
to ball arriving, BLUE has a SAFE

glen

Glen,
I don't do AFA ball - don't think thre is any in Pa. What happens if batter-runner passes 1B without touching it? Is it the same as ASA - batter-runnr assumed to have touched it for purposes of out/safe but can be called out on appeal if before he/she returns to the base?

My Thoughts
 

Okay guys by your answers I know you are going to disagree with my reasoning here but in the above situation I am going to call the runner out.

The whole thing with the double-base is for saftey but I have called over 1000 games in slow-pitch over the last 3 years in have yet seen a offensive team properly appeal the missed base situation on this when the runner only hits white. First, F3 playing his position properly and strectching for the catch is never going to see if the runner hits white or orange the only real member of the offensive team that is going to have a good view of this in most situations will be the pitcher. Now if F3 doesnt know how to play the position and puts his foot on top of the bag instead of touching the side then he is much more likely to draw the contact for the interference call and the auto out. So are we teaching the offenses with this message that F3 should improperly play his position?? I know our duty is to enforce the rules as they are written but sometimes......


JMHO

Don

Don,

It's not that I disagree with your <u>reasoning</u>, but that I do not agree that your interpretation is possible with the ASA rule as written. The way you have posed the question has the runner arriving "just before the ball arrives" means you would be able to sell the call of "out" using your ruling. Just don't explain what you <u>really</u> called, or you may have a protest filed.

However, what if the play is not that close? F3 is still stretching for the ball & can't see where the BR's foot hits, but everyone else clearly sees the BR is ahead of the throw.

It's not that this is an ambiguous rule in ASA...

<font color="blue"><b>ASA 8-2. BATTER-RUNNER IS OUT.</b> M. If, when using the double-base, and there is a play on the batter-runner, the <u>batter-runner touches only the white portion</u> and the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base. <u>This is treated the same as missing the base.</u></font>

Clearly written with no option given (assuming the listed exceptions are not in force), so if you call an ASA game your way, you are making up your own rule in the interest of what you consider "fair." We are not supposed to call the game as we see fairness, but as the rules define the game.

Steve,

Yes, the ruling for missing 1B is the same as ASA -
BR assumed to have touched it and can be called out
on proper appeal before returning.

In AFA at this time, we just using the double base
as one big base. Probably in near future we will go
with the ASA ruling all the way.

You know, now that you mentioned it, I have not seen
a team from Pa. in any of the AFA tournaments. I have
done five Nats. four 18U and 1 16U and dont recall
seeing a Pa. team. Will look in my old program books
and see.

glen

Don,
I agree with Dakota. We're not part of any team's coaching staff and teaching a fielder how to play their position is no part of our game responsbilities. Like you said - we just call the game the way it happens to be played, according to the rules of the game. Now, that having been said, I do make myself availble to some of the local high school teams during their early practice sessions.

Steve and Dakota

I agree with everything you all have said and pointed out. I know my point on this doesnt matter and the rule book is our law in umpiring also agree there is no choice but to call the play the way it is written when the runner is past the bag BUT on all the other bases a runner has to pass the bag to have missed the bag and be eligable for appeal but on this double base if the runners foot is on white which doesnt exist for the runner on this type of play we are ruling the runner is not out.

Okay move the same situation to second base on a force the runner is even with second before the throw but their foot is 6"s to the left of the bag. Would you ring her up or say she has overrun the bag so the runner is safe on the force and would have to be tag out??

Thanks for the replies


Don

If I read your question correctly...and I may not be
doing that, I would say that if both the fielder and
runner have missed second. I dont have an out at
this point. You say their foot is 6"s to left of the
bag, so I am assuming both missed bag...[I know to
ASSuMe makes blab...blab...]:D

glen

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve M
[B]Glen,
I don't do AFA ball - don't think thre is any in Pa.

This year we had teams from, Colorado, Louisiana,
Florida, Nebraska, Washington, Kansas, Oklahoma,
Ohio, Arkansas, Mississippi, New York, Indiana,
Arizona, Alabama, Missouri, Utah, and Texas.....
However, no Pa.

Jack Hutcherson is the Regional Director for your
area...including Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania,
and West Virginia. [area 7]

glen

clarify
 

I did mean the runners foot only next to the bag at 2nd 6" from touching but the fielder's foot is touching


Don

Re: clarify
 

No touchy, no safey...have an out. grin

glen

I got me an out, too.

This example was not an overrun of the base, you've got F4 with the ball touching the base and R1 standing 6 inches off the base. Now, here's another example that covers the point you wanted to make, Don. On a force play, R1 overruns 2B without touching the base. F4 then gets ball and tags the base - does not tag R1 and R1 returns & stands on 2B. In this case, I got me a safe runner. F4 is gonna have to tag R1 BEFORE R1 returns to 2B from the overrun.

Okay guys I hope I am not making this too confusing in my typing but you all have just made my point about the original play at 1st using the double base bag and if a runner that is touching the white but has not passed the bag should be rung up.

I know we who call slow-pitch have all seen that runner that doesnt run through 1st but just gets to the bag and stops what if they stop touching only the white then the ball is caught by F3 touching the bag do we not see this as the same as the play at 2nd where the runner has not touched the base but has not also passed the base


Penny for thoughts

Don

Don,
OK, I must have missed the part about the runner stopping & standing on the white base. I thought you were saying that she hit only the white base & then ran on down the line. If the batter-runner beats the ball, hits only the white base, stops & stands on white base, I see that as the same effect as hitting the orange, overrunning, & then returning to the white base. That batter-runner is safe as I understand the double base rule. btw, I hate getting wakeup calls from the office.

Don,

If the runner stops on the white prior to the ball reaching the base, the runner is safe. Why? Because if the BR was there that early to be able to stop and be standing on the base prior to the ball reaching F3, then there really was no viable play, therefore allowing the BR to use either portion of the bag.

I believe you are overthinking this play. The present ruling is no different than the ruling used with a regular base.

As for your scenario at 2B, whether the runner who is 6" off the bag is safe or out could depend heavily on the umpire's angle to the play and the thickness of the base.

BTW, for those who haven't heard this before, my personal belief is that the double-base is nothing, but a sad excuse for players not being properly coached on the mechanics of playing 1st base.

But, if you work ASA ball, you better get use to them. It has already been announced that begining in 2002, all JO Championship Play games will require the use of the double-base. However, I have been told by a commissioner that it looks like this rule may be applied to ALL divisions and level of ASA Championship Play, not just JO or fastpitch.

I happen to agree that there is a proper way to play 1B such that F3 can make the play & provide ample base for the batter-runner. However, "properly" is obviously a matter of opinion & I have seen enough players coached to block the bases & block home to know that there will continue to be collisions at the bases. 1B and home are the only bases where the runner can run through the base at full speed without being in jeopardy of being tagged, so I guess that is why special accomodations are made there (some divisions have a double plate, too).

Perhaps a better solution would be to actually give some teeth to the obstruction violation for fielders who block the bases without the ball, but as you say, we'd better get used to the double base a 1st.

Don,

If a runner going into 2nd "reaches" the base before the ball then that runner is safe unless tagged while off the base or appealled for missing the base if they are no longer in the "vicinity" (IMO within a step or two of the base). So in your example of the runner standing at 2nd 6" off the bag on a force play, I've got a SAFE runner unless she is tagged while off the base.

--Sam

Thank-you
 

I appreciate all of your replies and view points and as Mike said I am probably overthinking this play and should just call it as written. It one of those situations with a double base that probably wont happen but once or twice a year and many ways dont think the double base is all that but as stubborn as I am I do understand that what we get paid for is to enforce the rules the way they are written.


SO BE IT

Don

Re: Earlier Statement Regarding
Double Base [Aug 6, 0920]

I really like and IMO think that AFA has
the best procedure for handling the DB at
this time. Initial play - 1B utilized as
one big base. Runner or defender my use
either white/orange portion. Once runner
secures 1B she must utilize the white side.
[makes sense since orange in foul ground,
and as a runner she would be off base with
ball in circle could be called out]

Remember, all JMHO

glen
.

Glen,

Doesn't using both portions of the double-base defeat the "safety" factor for which this base was designed?

Does AFA recognize this piece of equipment necessary as a safety measure?

If it does, ignoring it's purpose may put the organization at risk in case of litigation.

JMHO,

Mike,

To be honest our Rule (AFA) book does not even
mention anything about the double base at this
time. We utilized it on trail basis in several
qualifiers, the state, and the nationals for the
first time. We had no problems at any of these
events. Most of the players utilize the double
base in their ASA play, but none really objected
to the procedure that we have been using and none
seem to have any problem adjusting to differences.

glen