NFHS uniform question
 

Can someone tell me if NFHS rule 3-2-6 has a typo or what are they trying to say? It says "For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary. However, sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be raged, frayed or slit".
To me this is a VERY hard thing to see what they mean. I think they have used the word individual too many times. Dave

"For individual players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary" means... B1 could wear long sleeves and B2 could wear short sleeves and B3 could wear 3/4 length sleeves.

"Sleeves of each individual player shall be approximately the same length" means... B1 cannot have the sleeve on her left arm long and the sleeve on her right arm short.

When I read that rule (BTW, there was a question on the test from it) I understood it to mean that it was okay for the lengths to vary on each player but the team had to be uniform. A medium sleeve would come just above the elbow on a bigger girl and it would fall to just above the wrist on a smaller girl. Yet, both girls are wearing the medium sleeve. That would be a good question for the NHFS forum.

From my interpretation, Dan you are 100% correct.

My opinion from the NFHS Forum:

Well, it is not a surprise. The uniform rule has read that way for nearly 30 years. Back then most girls wore baseball style uniforms, though some (from warm weather states?) were wearing short sleeve shirts.

I think this rule allowed that change, but states that whatever sleeve length you have, they all must be approximately the same.

Why not exactly all the same, when the same manufacturer makes the shirts? Probably, due to availability of shirts each year, a small girl could get a medium shirt and the sleeve might end at her elbow. Whereas the sleeve end of a shirt correctly sized for a player may end halfway between the elbow and shoulder.

But they are all short-sleeved shirts and thus all the players are legal.


WMB

I respectfully disagree with you on this. The rule in question, 3.2.6 states:

For INDIVIDUAL players, uniform sleeve lengths may vary.

To me, this means that each individual player can dictate whether they are cold or hot and can wear sleeve lengths to their INDIVIDUAL tastes.

The rule contiues:
However, sleeves of EACH INDIVIDUAL player shall be approximately the same length and shall not be ragged, frayed or slit.

Again, to me, this says that while they can determine their own sleeve length, they can't have a long sleeve on the right arm and a short one on the left arm.

This rule does NOT (IMO) discuss the TEAM'S sleeve length - but the INDIVIDUAL.

If you go up to 3.2.1 it states something about Uniforms of all team members which is clearly different verbage from the words individual players.

I promise you in my game, if a girl wants to wear long sleeves and another girl on the same team wants to wear short - by my interpretation of the rule, I have no problem.

Larry,
I obviously agree w/ WMB since that is how I read it.
Did you know Al Strigle??

I don't even see how you can read it that way. It says individual player, how can that be interpreted as a team? It would say, sleeve lengths for each team member must be the same length. Since it doesn't read that way, I am puzzled as to how you can read "team" into that.

Al Strigle? That came out of left field - what in the world would cause you to ask that? I did know him, not well though. We went to church together and he was quite a bit older than I was. I played some church softball with him, but that was the extent of it. How did you know him and again, why would you ask me that (just curious)?

When we lived in Northern VA, Al and Renee' daughter was my wife's best friend and their granddaughter was my daughter's best friend. I got to know them through their visits. I asked the question because Al was a Baseball umpire so I thought you might know him. He is greatly missed as he was like a granddad to my daughters as well.

Sorry to catch you out of left field. Next time I will PM you

I didn't know he was an umpire. When I knew him I was not umpiring. He was a great guy from what little I knew him. Tragic what happened.

I agree but that is how Al lived. Life was something to be enjoyed to the very end and he did.

This sleeve length rule is all about appearance, not allowing the sport to look like a sandlot game. I agree there is no prohibition against short and long sleeves on the same team. Pitchers often wear a long sleeve when others do not. No problem with one player's medium size shirt fitting differently than another. There are 4-5 shirt sizes and 10-15 player sizes on most teams.

The ragged, frayed or slit part is obvious and the equal length on an individual player is an extension of that although I don't remember a violation example.

OMG! Did someone actually agree with me?? I'm so happy because I hate it when I'm the only one that's right!:D

"Uniform sleeve lengths may vary." May vary from what? From one individual play on a team to another individual player on the same team? Or from the left arm to the right arm of an same individual player.

Does "may vary" indicate that you have permission to be different? Or does it mean that sleeve lengths do not need to be precisely the same length within a tolerance of (1/4") (1/32") (.0001")?

If it means they do not have to be precisely the same, does not the next sentence qualify that by saying, "Yes, you are allowed some varriance, but they must be approximately the same?"

I still say that you must go back to the 1970's when this rule was written (exactly as you see it in 2006) and ask yourself what were the rules makers trying to achieve. Remember that back then girls wore baseball uniforms - long sleeve shirts, pin-stripe pants, and stirrup sox.

Don't you think that as girls were starting to change uniforms, that the NFHS was trying to retain uniformity across the team? That they didn't want long sleeve and short sleeve mixed on the same team. Or do you really think they were worried about a girl taking pinking shears to one sleeve?

WMB

[quote=WestMichBlue]Nope, I think they were worried about not allowing girls to have different tastes. Cat wears long sleeves even in the most rigid heat - that's what she prefers. I am sure that no one else on the team wants to wear that. I think it is entirely permissible under the rule in question. I've seen kids want to wear a short sleeve on one arm and no sleeve on on the other. That is what is not allowed. The uniformity across the team is accomplished by the UNIFORM. I'm confused why there is no rule regarding sock lengths . . . I mean if uniformity is what they are after.

I'm going with the idea that you can't cut one sleeve off from a uniform. It may not have been the original intent, but don't the rules now allow the sleeves to be tied up to individual preference? From a grammar standpoint, it could probably go either way.

I know this is a rules theory discussion.. so thats fine.

In practice, I got other things to do than nursemaid a bunch of girls and who may have on a long sleeve undershirt and who doesnt or whatever and whose dressed what way.

All girls softball players look alike anyway.

Girl tuck your shirt so you dont get a cheap easy base while at bat with a shirt flopping around and thats about it, have on your uniform and safety equip as required and its all gravey after that. Im not gonna go nit picking around.

Players don't get "a cheap easy base while at bat with a shirt flopping around ", if the umpire knows what he/she is doing.

I tend to agree with this philosophy, but I will generally only attend to uniform issues when forced, err, I mean, requested, to do so (well, actually "forced" is closer than "requested"...). As for the shirt flapping around, if players have their shirt untucked, and it is hit by a pitched ball because it is blowing the the breeze or something, well, batter, you made no attempt to avoid (i.e. you did not tuck in your jersey). ;)

But, the rest of it, as I said...

As to the rule under discussion, I don't recall any specific training or POE or such since I have been certified for HS ball addressing this rule. Lacking further education as to NFHS's intent, and merely reading the language of the rule, I would have allowed different sleeve lengths on the different players (i.e. no requirment of all team members to be the same), but not allow mixed sleeve lengths on the same player. However, I also can't imagine a player who would have one sleeve short and the other long in the first place.

I'd rather have the whole general appearance part of the uniform rules placed in the same category as player eligiblity rules... a protest issue for the admin's to handle, and not a game umpire responsiblity. And, disallow any such protest to be filed after the contest is completed.

Let the game umpires only deal with uniform issues that actually affect the game (such as distracting items on the pitcher's arm, etc.)

JMO.

Sorry for the hijack, but, dude? You need a break. Or glasses. Or something.

Jennie Finch and Lisa Fernandez:

http://www.askmen.com/specials/2005_...nnie_finch.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Fernandez.JPG

Sorry to hijack another direction... it's interesting you chose a evening gown vs a uniform for the pictures.

I was in the parking lot preparing for a college game. A pitcher who I knew and had graduated the previous year was there to watch the game. She was in her "normal" cloths, with hair worn down and perfect make up. (And jeans so tight that I could tell she had a dime in her back pocket... and I could even tell that it was on heads.)

She threw up a big wave from across the parking lot, but I did not even recognize her. I literially looked over my shoulder to find out who she was waving to. I know girls that look that good just don't wave to me for no reason. When she teased me about it, I told her she would always be dirty and smelly to me.

Oh yeah them! Lisa.. well nah.. she looks like a sb player

but Cat!

:cool:


I stand corrected.

You wish!:D

I know what you and Wade mean, though. In uniform, on the field, they're pretty much all just ballplayers. Most of them. Jennie Finch and Michelle Smith look good anywhere, though!

ETA: Jennie looking smokin' in uniform:

http://espn.go.com/media/pg2/2003/02.../jf_rtprof.jpg

Wasn't this a rules thread at one point? Just for the record, I think the plain language of the rule means the sleeves of EACH INDIVIDUAL cannot vary for that individual (Jennie can't wear one long sleeve and one short), but that the sleeves of the INDIVIDUALS ON THE TEAM can vary from EACH OTHER (Cat can wear long sleeves, Michelle short). Just to justify my posting here :).