You Gotta Love It
 

Last nite. Post season tournament. 12U-Instructional. League broke the 12U-I into 4 brackets. I got the D bracket--teams that haven't won a game. First game was a barn-burner. 26-25 final score. 2 overtime innings. 3 1/2 hours game time. We had to switch fields in the middle of the game because of darkness. Took me 5 minutes to explain the international tie breaker rule to one of the coaches. A girl missed a pop fly with 2 outs which allowed the winning run to score in bottom half of inning, or I think we'd still be playing.

Round 2 is tonite. I'm packing a lunch this time.

Why? That's pretty easy to explain...

Yes it is - but I think you overlooked the key word: COACHES.:D

Dave,

If you are going to be an umpire, you need to remember there is no "overtime" in softball.

I umpired a quarter final game in a state FP tournament Sunday. One team had an outstanding pitcher and mediocre hitting. The other team had a very good pitcher and good hitting.

Regulation ended with the score tied 1-1. It took 4 extra innings (ITB) for one of these teams to put another run across.

I actually had one case where the runner placed on 2nd base was NOT the last out! I'm fairly confident there are now at least 2 scorekeepers and 2 coaches who actually understand the rule! (At least until they have the umpire who, a few weeks ago, made both of these teams go to tie-breaker with a runner on 2nd and one out!)

I think this says Instructional, or is it Institutional or some other typo?

Tom, Please don't tell them "last out". It's hard enough to explain who the ITB runner is when the last out is made by a lead runner.

I didn't. I'd ask the scorekeeper who was first up, and then move up one on the batting order and tell them #22 (or whoever) is on 2nd. They'd invariably say, "yes, she was the last out." So, I had a teachable moment when that was NOT true!

I posted this three years ago. No response then, don't expect one now.

"I've been trying to figure out if we should stop criticizing the coaches and think about the league and tournament committees, whoever selects or accepts the coaches and should provide some training. Maybe even parents."

:rolleyes:

For sake of clarification please give me the current International Extra Innings rule. We are having a bit of a debate over this lately.

Thanks

The runner at second should be "the player who is scheduled to bat last in that respective half inning", i.e. if B6 is leading off, then B5 is put at 2B.

With all due respect, what is there to debate?

Some rules say "bat ninth" instead of "bat last" and some say the dreaded "last out". Some tournament rules confuse the situation with some semantic variation and time limit application, etc. Some people don't know whether it is actually a rule and some States have nonsense like waiting until the 10th inning.

But, even with that, what the debate is about is a mystery.

We have always played it that there would only be 2 outs in the inning essentially starting with 1 out also. A TD is stating that there are no outs to start the inning.

Personally I dont care one way or the other, just curious.

You may have played it that way; but it isn't the rule, either in international play (ISF) where it was first adopted, ASA, NFHS, or NCAA.

What is the purpose of the Tiebreaker Rule? (Hint: it is in the name.)

How is that purpose served by starting the inning with 1 out?

The TD was correct. The "start with 1 out" is nonsense in every sense of the word.

BTW, speaking ASA, it is a real rule. 5-11.

BTW#2, speaking ASA again, the title of the rule is "TIE-BREAKER RULE" (no "International"). Maybe ASA inherited the rule from ISF, I dunno.

I would care.
If the purpose is to break the tie by making scoring easier, why in the world would anyone want to start with an out?

I called...
 

tourney director modified the tie breaker for 10-under slow pitch to 2 outs, runner on second, and a 3-2 count on the batter.

It only went 1 inning but talk about pressure on these youngsters...

This is going to end the game more quickly? Giving a kid one pitch, and then having to change sides and repeat?:eek:

Hmmm.... if the tournament is going to have a local tie breaker rule for 10U, it would be a lot more reasonable to start with the bases loaded and suspend the 10U baserunning restrictions. That would almost guarantee somebody scores 2 or 3 runs! All you need to have is they don't both score the same number of runs.

Not to mention that if they get the runner to 3rd, they can't get "steal" home.

Last Batted Out
 

Last night was the first time I have had to deal with using the International tiebreaker rule with me actually being part of the game instead of just spectating. I was umpiring in the field.
I know that most on here are at hight schol level or above and this is just my second year at rec ball. Dizzy Dean to be more specific.
Our rule says that the last batted out goes to second. I have read on here that the player batting last in the order in the tie breaking inning goes to second, but I have a hard time seeing the connection between these two references.
Last night we had a runner on first with two out. The BR hits one deep into the outfield and the runner that was on first got thrown out going into third for the last out.
The visiting team's coach, and league president, said that it is the last person who batted is who goes to second to start the tiebreaker, however, he was not put out.
It seems to me that the term "last batted out" would refer to the player who made the last out and who actually batted. In my reasoning, this term is used to keep a speedy coutesy runner who made the last out to go to second, thus keeping a speedster from starting at second base. In this case it would go to the player who made the second out providing that they actually did bat.
I am just looking for any clarification on this term that I can find.
Thank you for your time.

Greg, welcome to the boards. To use the phrase, "the batter scheduled to bat last in this inning" is just a way to keep it simple about who goes to second at the start of ITB play. If you say something like "the last person batting last inning" or "the last out of last inning," you could potentially place the wrong person by rule on the base. I suggest that, to keep it clear, you start thinking and saying "the batter scheduled to bat last this inning" so that you are always assured of having the correct person on base. You are correct about the reasoning of the rule, to prevent "special" runners from always assuming that position.

I agree with your thoughts in competitive leagues, and travel type ball. But having been involved in low level rec league for 10 years, I know it comes down to having someone who is decicated enough to leave work early, spend countless hours running practices, figuring our schedules call kids, trying to figure out who is going to be at the game, and what to do when only 4 show up (practice and or games) that it ends up being someone who is not that great at softball. From my expierence you end up with four different classes, nice people, softball smart people that can't teach, people who are great with kids but don't know softball, then that 'perfect' catagory that is a mix of all of the above.

And as a league official (UIC of small rec league) we have done all we can to teach, educate and inform coaches. We also attempt to find the best skilled coaches, and then try to mix the more knowledgable coaches up between the teams. Bottom line is sometimes it just don't work and you have a team that is run by the nice people....and they do need some help on rules, how to pitch, how to field, how to bat........etc. Again I am speaking of rec league, cost $50 to play including your shirt and a trophy for every kid at the end.....now if you are really paying to play (travel ball) you should expect someone to know what they are doing and know the rules of the game.

Thank you Scott for clearing that up for me....Greg

But ITB rolls off the tongue so much easier than TBR. Go ahead, try it! :cool:

Slow reader? ;) :D

True, but TBR sounds very similar to PBR and PBR is pretty much why we want the game to be over! :D :p :D

PBR? You set your sights pretty low, man. Get some good beer! Leinenkugel's or Sprecher might be near you. :)

But Lienies sounds like hin... nevermind... :eek:

Besides, the best beer around here is Summit Pale Ale. Not that cheesehead Lienies.

I have pretty low standards. Ice cold, free are basically the two requirements I'm looking to satisfy. :)

You've gotta try Sprecher Special Amber or their Black Bavarian. Delish.

Best part about Sprecher is that they don't sell them in 12 oz. bottles. Full pints!

Guys. While I appreciate that you don't settle for American swill when you are done with your games, let me tell you, Sprecher and Leinenkuegel are far from the best beer around. There are many, many beers that I would rank above them. But I am glad that at least you are drinking beer, and not that yellow fizzy stuff that AB and Miller and Coors and PBR are trying to sell you as beer. :cool:

Though I do have to admit that the version of a black lager that Leinie makes is pretty tasty.

Ahhh... But have you tried Sprecher's Black Bavarian?

I don't trust any beer I can see through. ;)

Oh, heck, I do. My favorite style of beers tend to be ales, in particular the American style pale ales and India Pale Ales. I have always, though, been a stout fan as well, partial to the oatmeal stouts. There aren't many "good" beers that I won't have from time to time. In the summer, (and here is beer that you can really see through, and from the lager family as well), a Pilsner Urquell or a Czechvar (Budvar) can really hit the spot. Birra Moretti is my favorite to have with Italian cuisine, another very pale lager.

But if you are going to strand me on an island with just one beer for the rest of my days, make it either a Victory Hop Devil or Prima Pils. (Both beers you can see through)

Momentarily back to the topic...
 

If I join the discussion on beer I'll never remember to ask my question on the topic.

Please clarify a point for me: using the definition "the player who is scheduled to bat last in that respective half inning", what about the last player scheduled to bat who does not complete the at-bat? Suppose the last scheduled batter is at the plate, at bat, when a runner is picked off in an attempted steal. Who goes to second?

The player who goes to second is always just ahead of the lead-off batter in the tie breaker half inning. In your example, suppose B5 did not complete her at bat. In that case, B5 is the lead-off batter in the tie breaker inning, and B4 goes to 2B. If B1 is the lead-off batter, then B9 goes to 2B, etc.

Your example is why "last out" does not always work.

While I do like those a lot, my favorite beer in all the "known world" (known by me, which includes most of North and Central America, much of Europe including the UK, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, most regions of Germany, including Berlin, French border area along the Rhine, Black Forest region, Munich and the rest of Bavaria, Switzerland, India and Japan) is British Bitter ale, and especially "real beer" bitter (meaning unpasteurized), and especially Pedigree Bitter from the midlands. The export bitter you can get in this country is not nearly as good as the "real beer". But, due to the short shelf life, that is only available within relatively short trucking distance of the brewery.

Thanks Dakota.

Agree that's why last out is a bad way to articualte the requirement and agreed with your answer about who goes to 2B. Your answer did make it more clear for me. Had been wondering, using the "last scheduled batter" definition whether, in the sit described, if the one at bat wasn't considered the last scheduled batter because she didn't finish her at-bat. She is therefore the next scheduled batter rather than the last scheduled batter.

I know what you mean. Cask conditioned ales from the UK don't survive the journey well. I have been fortunate enough to have had them in native homeland. Although, I must admit, there are some, while not cask conditioned, that do taste excellent here in the states. A local of mine has Fuller's ESB on tap, and it is pretty darn good, I must tell you.

Lately I've been cutting back on beer, but I do enjoy ice cold Chimay Premier.

Nice choice, but let it warm up. Chimay should be enjoyed in the 50's or so, not ice cold. Great flavors. The red is very nice, though I am more of a Chimay Bleue kind of guy when it comes to their offerings.

PBR? Professional Bull Riding? The programming honchos at ESPN2 will be pleased. Well, at least I know someone watches that stuff.

The fact that this comment is coming from someone from Vacaville is even more amusing to me. For those who don't habla, "vaca" means "cow."

Sounds like someone's been watching The Ocho too much. ;)

Ironic that that a thread with the title "You gotta love it" has turned to a discussion of beer and bull riding.......:rolleyes:

Ironic, or inevitable?

I think that kid was my partner the other night!