Another Obstruction play...
 

No runners, B1 hits a single into left field.

F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3. My left arm goes out for OBS. BR rounds first and stops to find the ball. Third base coach, noticing that I have my arm out for OBS, yells at BR to go to second. BR takes off for second, and is tagged sliding into the base. I call "DEAD BALL", announce the obstruction, and send the runner back to first base.

I know that this is a judgement call and a HTBT, but I would like any comments.

I also got no questions regarding this call....I'm not sure anybody but my partner (and that is questionable) knew what I called.

Technically, the BR is only protected to the base to which they would have gotten had there been no OBS, which would be first. BUT, looks like the DDB signal has put the runner in jeopardy, so I may have done the same thing. Like you said, HTBT.

For some reason, many F3s in the SP league I ump for feel like they need to be standing on 1B on a hit to the OF, not sure what they're thinking...

Was your arm still out after the runner rounded and stopped?

I can't tell from the OP "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3. My left arm goes out for OBS. BR rounds first and stops to find the ball" whether the BR is impeded before or after reaching 1st.
If after, let's talk.

No, dweezil. She's also protected between the bases where the obstruction occurred. If the fielder was directly on the base, then you generally give the runner the benefit of being protected between that base and the next one (between 1st and 2nd in this case). However, that doesn't mean the AWARD is necessarily 2nd base. I think that in the OP, since the runner was not just running to 2nd, and only ran after the OBS signal was seen, I would award 1st base. Sounds like the OP made the correct ruling on the field.

HTBT, but just as much of that "wide turn" probably came after touching the base than before, so, in my judgment, part of the act of OBS came between 1B & 2B.

That's why I asked.

Mike and mcrowder have pretty much captured my thinking process.

Obstuction has been a personal POE for me for the last year or so. I felt like I was missing too many calls and not ruling properly on the ones I did call. This call in particular, at first base on a hit, has been part of my focus.

This was a B level tournament, so it is entirely possible that the player had not been coached properly to get away from the bag on a hit, then come in behind the runner for a possible throw.

In most cases on this call, nothing is going to happen, and few will even notice the arm out for OBS. On this particular play, somebody noticed and it resulted in a play I had to make a ruling on. I'm comfortable with my ruling on the field.

I posted here to bring attention to this type of OBS, because I notice a lot of umpires on a base hit are lazy about getting into the infield and making the pivot to watch the BR touch first and pick up this particular type of OBS.

There is no reason an umpire should NOT call OBS when s/he sees it. The old "well, she wasn't going anywhere anyway" BS is a cop-out and not worthy of discussion.

You see it, you call it. We are not mindreaders. None of us really KNOW what's going to happen next. We know what SHOULD happen next, but when that doesn't happen is when we end up posting the play here.

Too many umpires think the "if I don't see it, I don't have to rule on it" attitude gets them by. Another weak excuse for not doing the job. These guys/gals forget that there is no requirement to move runners or make a game-deciding decision, just review the play in your mind and place a runner where you believe they would have advanced/retreated had the OBS not occured.

To the other extreme, you have guys out there looking for a reason to penalize a player. You have umpires thinking "What a putz. I'll teach him not to block the base and give the runner an extra base. Ha! That'll show'em."

Give me a break. This rule is not that hard to recognize or apply. Yeah, there may be a TWP that will require a little extra exercise of the gray matter, but that's why we get paid.

JMHO

As PU, I'm watching the BR until I know the BU has a good angle, unless I'm occupied with a ball hit to left or lead runners.


edited from PU to BU

Wow, you have enough umpires to assign two guys to the plate on each game? I'm impressed :D :D :D

I agree, but the reason for my question (about the arm being still out after rounding 1B) was that the arm was now signalling to the coach that the runner was still protected. Hence, the correct call was made (protecting the runner).

I know that the arm being dropped does NOT mean the protection is dropped, but if the arm is still out, it means protection is still in force.

One for balls/strikes, one for runners and checking bats. The question is whether there is also any BU.

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

Alright, I do not know U-Trip rules, but it seems to me that you are applying the ASA standard (where would runner end up without obstruction happening) to the U-Trip game which appears to actually penalize a team for commiting the "foul" of obstruction. I'd say, call it and call it and call it - every time. If you enforce enough calls of actually advancing the runner a base because of the infraction by the defense, they might just wise up and stop committing obstruction.

ASA ball and every other sanctioning body I work - if I see obstruction, the arm goes out.

No - the arm has nothing to do with whether protection is on or off. You leave the DDB signal up long enough for everyone (who's looking) has time to see it, and then you drop it. Dropping it has nothing to do with any of your decisions regarding protection. The arm signal merely means that you have a delayed dead ball (it is, after all, the DDB signal, not the OBS signal). It is conceivable that you could have your arm still out on a play briefly after the runner has outrun her protection - so saying "if the arm is still out it means protection is still in force" is just not correct.

Heck - under your logic, if you were protecting to home plate on an apparent ITPHR, you'd have to leave your arm up while the runner slogs around from 1st to home.

This is exactly why NFHS removed the automatic base award from the OBS rule a few years back. Umpires wouldn't call OBS so the coaches started coaching their players to OBS runners.

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field. So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

I didn't mean it to be a technicality... but if the arm is still out half way to the next base, what is the umpire telling the players / coaches?

Speaking ASA, the judgment the umpire has to make is a parallel-universe question...

Suppose the obstruction had not happened. What base would the runner have achieved?

The answer to that question is the base to which the umpire protects the runner, and is the base the umpire will award the runner at the end of the play (if necessary).

Also, the runner is protected by rule between the two bases where the obstruction occurred. So, in the scenario presented, the runner is also protected between 1B and 2B.

But, if put out between those bases, the awarded base is the answer to the first question (in this case, 1B).

Andy,
While I understand this approach - "This is exactly why NFHS removed the automatic base award from the OBS rule a few years back. Umpires wouldn't call OBS so the coaches started coaching their players to OBS runners." I don't like it or agree with it. I had the same obstruction in some of my games - after it was known that obstruction was being called, a lot of the obstruction went away. Put a real penaly in for committing this infraction - and that's not just removing the effect of the infraction - call it, enforce it, and the penalty will start to disappear.

The folks who would not enforce that penalty in Fed ball in past years are the same ones who (then & today) don't attend clinics, don't learn & study the rules, and are just there for a quick pay check. They did the game a dis-service - and these are the folks who ought to P-i-ss every umpire off.

This is why I do not care for the train of thought that you need to penalize the defense.

That's not your concern. You are getting paid to work a game under a particular set of rule. If you are working under a set of punitive rules, you apply the rule as directed.

If you have a problem with the rule, then you probably shouldn't work u-trip.

That cramp is more than slight. I think "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3" can easily be read by Stevie Wonder as obvious OBS.

The umpire should protect the OBS runner to whatever base s/he believed that runner would have reached safely had the OBS not occurred. It is pure umpire judgment. There is no locked-in formula for ruling on OBS.

Mike,
You might be too hard on him. It really wasn't clear in the OP whether the BU though F3 impeded progress to 1st or just getting around 1st toward 2nd. His question was about whether the BR was awarded 1ts because of being impeded before 1st or becaue the ump judged that the try for 2nd was only because of the OBS call.

That something happened (probably OBS ... but conceivably something else) that caused a delayed dead ball, at some point within the past 2-3 seconds or so. Beyond that ... nothing. The length of time that you leave the arm up should be the same on every play (barring, of course, the necessity to use your left arm for something else during that time, like a safe call), and should have nothing to do with protection being on or off.

I don't necessarily agree with that. If the runner or BR makes it safely to the base I would have awarded them the OBS would be ignored, correct? At that point I'd drop my arm.

There are some HTBT aspects to it, and im not questioning this obs call.. but for the sake of discussion

Softball players are taught to take 1B wide when rounding the base.. and in practice set up cones (or balls or mits) at locations to teach this wide rounding. Proper base running at 1B is rounding it wide.

The HTBT part stevie wouldnt see is if the runner was obstructed by F1.. or the runner was just rounding base... (or if their was that cute little orange base in play HOW that could be obs... being on the inside corner.)

A runner rounding a base wide (even with a player using up the inside corner) is not automatically OBS. The judgement part would be if there was OBS because of that.

You are operating under a misconception.

The arm signal merely states that you have witnessed something that caused a delayed dead ball. It should be left up ONLY long enough (2-3 seconds is plenty) so that others have time to see your signal. This is not the "I have the runner currently protected" signal, nor is it the OBS signal. Dropping your arm does not and should not signify ANYTHING, and certainly shouldn't indicated that your protection has ended.

Picture an infield hit where F1 OBS's the runner a step or so prior to first base, but you are only going to award and protect to first base. Do you shoot the arm out and quickly put it back down 2 steps later (perhaps half a second)? That looks ridiculous. Make the signal, and drop it after a couple of seconds.

I agree with all this mc, all I was saying was if the umpire left the arm up "too long" has he (perhaps not intentionally) communicated something to the players / coaches?

I have never subscribed to the school of thought that the arm stays out for as long as the protection is in force, but there are plenty of umpires to do that. If the arm is left out a "long time" has this "told" the coach something?

When I read the OP, I took the question to be "should the umpire have let the out stand since the obstruction occurred between home and 1B and she was not protected beyond 1B?"

Mike (Irish) addressed that by observing that the OBS was likely an ongoing thing that was still occuring between 1B and 2B, even if it first occurred between home and 1B.

Speaking ASA

I have no problem with the umpire holding the signal as they choose.

The "old" mechanic was to keep the arm out until the OBS was no longer a factor in the play. As it was explained to me, the mechanic was changed because some umpires looked like they were out there flapping a wing while running around hustling to get into position.

If I have no need to "run" with the play, I'll hold it as long as I feel it is necessary, sometimes to conclusion. If I need to move with the play, I drop it and hustle into position.

Well I chewed on this one all the way to work.. and I cant post much here..

Im a little slower than most so I'm also having trouble grasping why the DDB signal was given in this instance...


The OBS was not significant enough to protect the runner to 2nd due to the rounding (not running through 1b, rounding it) .. and the DDB signal confused the OFF so the Ump bit the bullet and gave put the runner back to 1B despite the fact the runner had passed the base protected to (1B).. so..

Why call it? It was an error.

1) If the point was to protect the runner to 1B .. the point was likely moot by the time the arm was raised.. by the time the runner made a wide round due to the OBS there was probably less the 1 second before the runner was on the bag.. and OBS can be called even if DDB is not signalled. There was no play being made on the runner anyway and no reason for DDB or OBS because the runner was safe by miles.

2) If the point was to protect the runner back to 1B after rounding, the DDB call should have been delayed until a play was being made at 1B.. this would have prevented the resulting confusion.

Essentially, I dont see how there was any possibility of OBS here.. based on the scenario provided and the resulting ruling after the out at 2B and no reason for the DDB signal... UNLESS the point was to protect the runner to second, which wasnt the case.

But then again I'm not a very good umpire, but thats how I see it. OBS protecting a BR to 1B is not in plays like was described here.. you'll see it on bunts/slaps and ugly defense or stuff like that..

And as I mentioned, runners rounding 1B properly, round it wide.

1)The OP implied the BR was impeded by F3, just not clearly whether before/after 1st or both.
2) Why ignore a violation if it happens?
3) What if your crystal ball isn't working and you don't know what he runner will do?
4) What if the runner blew past 1st w/o noticing the OBS call or being told by the coach and would have reached 2nd safely if not delayed by the OBS?
5) How do you deal with an OBS award if needed and not signalled?
6) Isn't "the scenario provided and the resulting ruling after the out at 2B" a reason for a DDB signal?

Please find me a BR who can round 1B at full speed while avoiding a defender standing on the inside corner of the bag and not be obstructed.

It's not possible, PERIOD. C-One has it nailed. The only error here would be the umpire not doing their job as directed via ASA rules and mechanics.

A question: I may be reading too much into your response, but are you saying that OBS should only be called when the umpire will award the next base?

As Mike surmised earlier, part of the OBS happened prior to the BR reaching first, and part happened between first and second. In my judgement, I had the runner protected between first and second. I do not believe the BR would have reached second base absent the OBS, but she cannot be put out between first and second. The fact that she stopped and then only attempted to go to second after the third base coach saw my DDB signal and yelled at the runner to go confirmed my initial judgement.


I disagree with you here, Wade. I'm certainly not a coach or have ever coached, but most runners that I have seen want to turn at any base on the inside corner to get a good push to change direction and take the shortest possible path to the next base. A fielder standing on the inside corner of the base without the ball is taking that path away from the runner.

Mike and Cecil,

essentially what I am saying is, if you felt the OBS impeded the runner rounding the base to 2nd, then they should be protected to 2nd.

The OP did not feel they were impeded to 2nd, but rather impeded to first, and in this instance .. yes, it should not have been signalled because it was moot at the time DDB was signalled, resulting in confusion..

Thats what i'm trying to say.

So if the runner was impeded by F3 while rounding the base, with the result that at the out at 2, thats the call..

if not, it should have been signalled..

typing quick, gotta run..

Speaking ASA, only if in your judgment the runner would have made 2B without the OBS.This is contrary to the training I have received. See the OBS, call it. If nothing else, it puts the teams on notice that OBS will be called if it is observed.This cannot be true, since by rule the runner is protected between the bases where the OBS occurred, unless, that is, you are saying the "continuing OBS" theory Mike posts is wrong, that instead you only go with the instant the OBS was first observed (between home and 1B).

I do not agree that the effect of the OBS was moot merely because the runner would not have advanced beyond 1B. One clear effect of OBS is protection of the runner between the bases where the OBS occurred. By your application of the rule, you are choosing to not provide the runner with this protection, and, hence, making the impact of the offense on the offending team even less that it should be.

DDB is not a yellow flag.. its a DDB signal.

It doesnt signal OBS, it signals we have a dead ball pending developments..

The runner in this case already passed the base protected too and rounded 1st.. so there is no DDB, the OBS is not there. If was gone the second the runner passed the base protected to

There thats a succinct way of putting it.

Proper base running at 1B is getting wide BEFORE the base and hitting the inside corner as you push off toward second.

In the next paragraph, I'm assuming you meant F3, not F1.

If the double base is being used, the BR can still use the white bag on a hit to the oufield, so F3 parked on the inside corner can easily be called for OBS, even with a double base.

ditto. ditto.

No, it's an incorrect way of putting it.

An obstructed runner is "protected" in 2 ways - they cannot be put out prior to the base that they will be AWARDED, and they cannot be put out between the bases where the obstruction occurred. Yes, 90% of the time this is the same thing - but NOT always, and NOT in the case we're discussing. A runner who is obstructed while rounding first who will not reach 2nd base (Umpire judgement) without the OBS, is going to be AWARDED first base, but is PROTECTED between first and second nonetheless, and if put out between 1st and 2nd, should be AWARDED first base.

I thought the arm was just the DDB signal telling everyone that play will be killed as soon as playing action stops. It has nothing to do with the actual obstruction call. A release IP gets the arm as well doesn't it??

We might "have a dead ball", de"pending" on developments.


What's a yellow flag? ;) Is it optic yellow? :)

What you quoted from me was an overstatement. "... could mean..." instead of "means" is more accurate.

Yes, the arm out is a DDB signal, not an "obstruction" signal, so it is used for multiple DDB infractions.

I guess my confusion comes at the point that the duration of the arm is also the duration of protection. I have not been clinicized in that manner.

There is obviously no standard for how long to hold the arm out, but if the Dead Ball is still possible after the Delay, then DDB is still applicable. Of course, as Mike said, some of us are not athletic enough to run full speed with our arm out, so it boils down to being practical and the need to comunicate in any given situation.

"clinicized"... that sounds like you are surrounded by men in white coats! ;)

As Mike said earlier, it was the old mechanic.

What does he call it?

Running around with your wing stuck out?

Something like that. The first time I read it I LOL:D

After this week, I need some clinicizing
It has been a bear

No, there are lots of situations..


Im not arguing here.. just kind of exploring a the mushy gray matter between my ears..

The runner was protected between the two bases...
but at the same time.
The runner had already safely reached the base you would award her had there been no obs (1B)..

So essentially, you should have either called her out IMO or given her 2B to be consistent on the call..

My brain is tired, long day at work and a double header of female SP (no I didnt slit my wrists)..

It seems to me once the runner reaches the protected base, they are no longer protected.

By your own ruling after the fact, you didnt protect her to 2nd.. you seem to have a .. "well shes protected to 1b.. then between 1b-2b and if shes out she goes to 1b"

Personnally, i dont see justication for that "grant in part deny in part" type ruling within ASA rules.


In the heat of a game a ruling where everyone is happy is a good one :) so hey its all good... but here I like to thrash the wheat a little and learn from it.



If the play was in anyway close at 2b, argument could be made the runner just might have made it..but thats the htbt part.

IMO, your argument has less to do with an DDB signal and OBS than it does with the power of a umpire to rectify a situation they caused. You recognize your DDB signal caused the coach to send his runner and you fixed it. And thats fine you did that, but thats mixing the two rule sets into one.

Thats a different matter than making the argument DDB/OBS ruling was exactly correct, those are two different rule sets .. either that runner was protected to 2b or to 1b.. cant be both, and if 1b, that runner passed her protected base.

I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion. An obstructed runner is always (speaking ASA) protected in two ways:

1) To the base she would have acheived in the umpire's judgment had there been no obs, and
2) Between the bases where the obstruction occurred.

#2 is always in force, regardless of what base is determined by #1. They are separate aspects of the runner's protection and are not dependent upon each other. There is nothing inconsistent about protecting the runner to 1B on OBS that occurred between 1B and 2B.

It is true that if the runner obtains the base she was protected to, she is no longer protected between the bases, but that condition comes into play after the obstruction has occurred. In the OP situation, the obstruction continued beyond the point the runner reached 1B, so she was protected back to first and could not be put out between 1B and 2B.

You are right here. Runner was protected. Runner was beyond the award base. Happens all the time - shouldn't cause you a problem.
How can you get it right in the first sentence and then say this. What do you think "protected" means. She's PROTECTED FROM BEING PUT OUT between 1st and 2nd. So protect her. If she's put out, make the award (1st base in this case). It's not about consistency - it's about enforcing the rule as written.
Why would it seem to be this way to you, when the rule says the exact opposite. The protection between the bases where obstructed is IN ADDITION to the protection to the award base, not instead of.
No ... she's AWARDED first base - she's still protected between the bases where the obstruction occurred.
Perhaps normally this is true, but additional things can happen AFTER obstruction that cause the play to be close at 2nd when you would not have expected her to reach 2nd had the OBS not occurred (an overthrow after the OBS comes to mind)
No situation to rectify (this only applies if the umpire makes an INCORRECT call).
Immaterial. If the coach uses my DDB signal to react to, and reacts incorrectly, it's on him. If I have DDB between 1st and 2nd, and he decides to send his runner to THIRD, when I'm only protecting to 1st or 2nd, too bad for him.
PLEASE read the actual rule again. (Please don't reply until you get out the book and read the actual words of this rule.) You'll see two protections listed - one to the award base, and one between the bases where obstructed. Truly, this is WAY easier than you're making it out to be.

I think the part that may have me confused is the wording of the rule and which portion of the rule is applied with a higher precedence.

i dont have a rule book at work (mcroweder et al) but the two applicable aspects are essentially..

- A runner cant be put out between the two bases where obstructed.

and

- A runner who attempts to advance beyond the base they would have reached had there been no obstruction may be put out.

There are plays (such as the OP's) where this can come into conflict... and the suggestion that once there is obstruction between two bases, that at all times between those two bases (barring another infraction of the rules) there is a "free play" in effect for the off.

The manner in which this is being applied by those who know on this board could suggest that a wording change is in order.

So a similar play (in application)..



R1@1B. F2 attempts pick off on the pitch. F3 blocks a diving R1 from the bag without the ball, and OBS/DDB is called/signalled. the ball sails over F3. R1 gets up and attempts 2B. F9 backing up the play catches the ball and throws to F6 who legally applies a tag prior to R1 reaching 2B.




Now if the ruling is DB, R1 is safe at 1B.. then I stand corrected but suggest the following wording change..

"If the runner attempts to advance beyond the two bases where the OBS occured... they may be put out".

As it reads now, clearly the runner was going into 1B when the OBS occured, but equally clear, the runner is attempting to advance beyond the base they would have reached had there been no OBS (and a play had been made)---1B.

The rules clearly state that if a runner attempts to advance beyond the base they would have reached had there been no OBS, they may be put out.. in this instance its obvious the runner was attempting 1B at the time of OBS..


That is being said to be disregarded between the two bases where OBS occured.. and a punitive free play is in place for the Off between 1B and 2B.

I never interpretted OBS this way, but i'm guessing that that is wrong.. dunno.

Poor wording. The OBS runner can advance without liability to be put out beyond the bases which between the runner was protected if the umpire believed they would have attained that base had the OBS not occurred.

Also, a runner may be put out if they attempt to advance after attaining the base to which they were protected ONLY if there was a subsequent play on another runner. In Tuscon, I asked why that cannot be all the time and, if I remember correctly, was told that it would cause more consternation among 40K umpires across the country. I'm pretty sure that was the condensed version of a much bigger discussion.

The rule, also, clearly states that an OBS runner cannot be put out between the two bases where the OBS occurred with the exception noted above and except in violation of another rule.

ASA Umpire Manual has a pretty clear explanation which starts on page 229.

Wade, I think you are starting to see the rule, now; you were half reading it. Once you actually reread, you will see there is no conflict, as you are reading the runner can be out, but not that whole sentence. It actually says (8-5.B.3) "If the obstructed runner is put out after passing the base which would have been reached OR advanced beyond the two bases where the obstruction occurred. EFFECT: The obstructed runner will be called out."

So, you have the base you would award; runner cannot be out at first base. You have the protection between the two bases; runner cannot be out between first and second. Only if the runner passes BOTH forms of protection (goes past second) is the runner in jeopardy.

Here is a coach who understood the rule, and did the right thing sending the runner; the runner cannot be out at second, so why not try for the base? Coach SHOULD know, same as an umpire, that the worst case on this obstruction is dead ball, runner gets award at first base. Umpire MUST signal that obstruction; coach may then interpret what protection exists at his own risk.

Should the rule be rewritten? I think that the entire rule and the POE have been editted piecemeal over the years, so that there is no longer a fluid relationship in the text. I particularly think that the "OR" in the one part I quoted is misleading, and should be more correctly an "and". I doubt the rule sections can be redone effectively, since they have so many scattered thoughts; I do think the POE could and should be rewritten and the "or" made an "and" as an editorial correction.

None of the rewrites I suggest change the rule; they could do a much better job of defining and explaining it.

ok, good enough. I understand now.

Thanks.

Great thread guys...

And now for the rest of the story and one that will no doubt stick with us all. We all learned that an umpire running on the field with one arm out makes him or her appear as a one winged bird in flight... :) .. Al

The rest of the story!

Correct for USSSA Slo-Pitch ONLY.

Obstruction rule in USSSA FP is identical to ASA/NFHS. "The base they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, had there been no obstruction."

WMB