OBS or nothing

DaveASA/FED · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 07, 2006, 01:26pm

BR hits the ball to the area between 1st and 2nd, 1st goes after it, 2nd coming over to back up both are heading to bag, 2nd pulls up to let 1st run and touch the bag herself, BR is coming down the line in running lane (ASA) toward the orange bag, 1st runs through the base sideways touching the white portion then overruns the orange to end up on foul territory. I call the out as she is there prior to the runner. Runner pulls up slightly as she is a couple of steps from 1st seeing the player running perpendicular to her. 3rd base coach asks about OBS as the runner slowed down due to the fielders action. I stated that the fielder had possession of the ball so there was no OBS.

1) Is this correct?
2) what if 2nd would have continued to run to first and the runner would have reacted to the actions of the 2nd baseperson? how would you determine she reacted to the 2nd baseperson not the 1st with the ball??

Mountaineer · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 07, 2006, 01:38pm

You can't expect F3 to simply stop on a dime can you? IMO, from your description, F3 was getting to the bag first, regardless. I didn't see anything about F3 blocking the bag either. I might be wrong - but I would have called the same as you, let the coach gripe a minute and gone on with the game. Bottom line, it's a judgement call - "Coach, in my opinion . . ." end of discussion.

Dakota · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 07, 2006, 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I stated that the fielder had possession of the ball so there was no OBS.

Yup. End of discussion.

As to both fielders getting in the way, reaction to F4 would have had to been obvious, as in F4 runs between F3 and the BR. Otherwise, F3 has the ball, no OBS.

Skahtboi · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 07, 2006, 05:15pm

I have nothing here as well!

Bluefoot · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 08, 2006, 08:37am

I had nearly this exact play last night. Men's ASA SP, one umpire.
BR hit ground ball between F3 and F4. Initially, both fielders went for the ball, then F3 let F4 have it, and F3 ran towards 1B to receive the throw from F4. F3 receives the throw on the run, a step away from the double bag at 1B, oversteps the white portion of the bag, and steps on the orange part. Then BR gets to 1B, where F3 is on the orange portion of 1B. To avoid a collision with F3, BR steps on white portion as BR passes 1B. I call batter safe. BR returns to white portion. At no time did F3 tag BR. Defense wants to know why batter is not out, since F3 beat BR to 1B. I tell them that F3 used the orange portion, and since the play did not come from foul territory, F3 needed to touch the white portion. Then defense wanted to know why BR is safe, since BR touched the white portion of 1B when BR is supposed to touch the orange portion on the play. Defense did not make a live ball appeal before BR returned to 1B.

If defense had properly appealed that BR did not touch white portion of 1B before BR returned to 1B, should BR be called out, even though BR was avoiding a collision with F3, who is standing directly in BR's path, on top of orange portion? Obstruction can't be called on the initial play, since F3 had the ball. But F3 was not making a play on BR, since F3 did not try to tag the white portion of 1B, nor did F3 try to tag BR. But F3 is is preventing the BR from properly touching the orange portion of 1B, and F3 is trying to avoid a collision on the play. What is the proper call on this play and appeal?

Mountaineer · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 08, 2006, 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

I had nearly this exact play last night. Men's ASA SP, one umpire.
BR hit ground ball between F3 and F4. Initially, both fielders went for the ball, then F3 let F4 have it, and F3 ran towards 1B to receive the throw from F4. F3 receives the throw on the run, a step away from the double bag at 1B, oversteps the white portion of the bag, and steps on the orange part. Then BR gets to 1B, where F3 is on the orange portion of of 1B. To avoid a collision with F3, BR steps on white portion as BR passes 1B. I call batter safe. BR returns to white portion. At no time did F3 tag BR. Defense wants to know why batter is not out, since F3 beat BR to 1B. I tell them that F3 used the orange portion, and since the play did not come from foul territory, F3 needed to touch the white portion. Then defense wanted to know why BR is safe, since BR touched the white portion of 1B when BR is supposed to touch the orange portion on the play. Defense did not make a live ball appeal before BR returned to 1B.

If defense had properly appealed that BR did not touch white portion of 1B before BR returned to 1B, should BR be called out, even though BR was avoiding a collision with F3, who is standing directly in BR's path, on top of orange portion? Obstruction can't be called on the initial play, since F3 had the ball. But F3 was not making a play on BR, since F3 did not try to tag the white portion of 1B, nor did F3 try to tag BR. But F3 is is preventing the BR from properly touching the orange portion of 1B, and F3 is trying to avoid a collision on the play. What is the proper call on this play and appeal?

This is why I do not like a D1b. I have very little experience with it but that doesn't keep me from having an opinion (which may be dead wrong). IMO, if the defender took the orange portion of the bag, I would think that would give the offense the right to the white portion - or at the very least I would treat it as an overrunning of the bag and they are safe when they come back to the white, thus there would be no appeal. It seems like you would be punishing the offense for defensive misconduct. I do agree that the runner is not out since the def. missed the white - but I do not see anyway of punishing the runner either.

CecilOne · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 08, 2006, 03:08pm

Not disagreeing with the call, but I think "receives the throw on the run, a step away from the double bag at 1B, oversteps the white portion of the bag, and steps on the orange part" is a play on the BR.

Bluefoot · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 08, 2006, 04:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Not disagreeing with the call, but I think "receives the throw on the run, a step away from the double bag at 1B, oversteps the white portion of the bag, and steps on the orange part" is a play on the BR.

I mean after F3 has done all of the above, and is standing on the orange portion of 1B. He stopped making any further play on the BR. He had made a play on the BR, but missed the white portion of 1B.

NKYFP FAN · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 08, 2006, 04:44pm

BLUEFOOT,
IMO, you made the right call. Think of it this way. What would the call be if the orange bag did not exist. SAFE. Because, F3 did not touch the base and the BR touched the only base available.

NKYFP FAN

IRISHMAFIA · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 08, 2006, 06:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

I had nearly this exact play last night. Men's ASA SP, one umpire.
BR hit ground ball between F3 and F4. Initially, both fielders went for the ball, then F3 let F4 have it, and F3 ran towards 1B to receive the throw from F4. F3 receives the throw on the run, a step away from the double bag at 1B, oversteps the white portion of the bag, and steps on the orange part. Then BR gets to 1B, where F3 is on the orange portion of 1B. To avoid a collision with F3, BR steps on white portion as BR passes 1B. I call batter safe. BR returns to white portion. At no time did F3 tag BR. Defense wants to know why batter is not out, since F3 beat BR to 1B. I tell them that F3 used the orange portion, and since the play did not come from foul territory, F3 needed to touch the white portion. Then defense wanted to know why BR is safe, since BR touched the white portion of 1B when BR is supposed to touch the orange portion on the play. Defense did not make a live ball appeal before BR returned to 1B.

If defense had properly appealed that BR did not touch white portion of 1B before BR returned to 1B, should BR be called out, even though BR was avoiding a collision with F3, who is standing directly in BR's path, on top of orange portion? Obstruction can't be called on the initial play, since F3 had the ball. But F3 was not making a play on BR, since F3 did not try to tag the white portion of 1B, nor did F3 try to tag BR. But F3 is is preventing the BR from properly touching the orange portion of 1B, and F3 is trying to avoid a collision on the play. What is the proper call on this play and appeal?

You cannot call OBS on the player in possession of the ball.

Bluefoot · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 09, 2006, 09:45am

Maybe this covers it:

POE: Over-Running First Base
"If a play is made at first base, but the ball is overthrown or the fielder is pulled off the base by an errant or missed throw, this also allows the batter-runner to use the white if trying to advance to second base."

F3's play to catch the ('errant') throw and tag 1B is what caused him to miss the white portion. BR touched the white portion, but was not trying to go to 2B.

IRISHMAFIA · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 09, 2006, 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

Maybe this covers it:

POE: Over-Running First Base
"If a play is made at first base, but the ball is overthrown or the fielder is pulled off the base by an errant or missed throw, this also allows the batter-runner to use the white if trying to advance to second base."

F3's play to catch the ('errant') throw and tag 1B is what caused him to miss the white portion. BR touched the white portion, but was not trying to go to 2B.

That is not an errant throw. Check out ASA 8.2.M.5

Dakota · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 10, 2006, 10:42am

Can someone please show me where the rules say the fielder in possession of the ball must be actually making a play on the runner supposedly obstructed?

If the fielder has possession, there is no possibility of obstruction.

Fielder attempting to execute a double play: Bases loaded bottom of 7th tie score no outs situation. Priority of the defense is to prevent the score. Bunt fielded by F1. F1 has the ball but is attempting to throw out R1, and steps into the path of BR, causing BR to run wide. Throw to F2 is successful for the out, throw back to F4 covering 1st base is successful for the double play on a very close call. BR would likely have been safe had she not run wide to avoid F1. No obstruction here... F1 had the ball.

(Edited for clarity - see italicized words, above.)

CecilOne · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 10, 2006, 01:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

Can someone please show me where the rules say the fielder must be actually making a play on the runner supposedly obstructed?

My reference to making a play was wrt a double-base violation, which requires a play being made.

Mountaineer · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 10, 2006, 01:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

Can someone please show me where the rules say the fielder must be actually making a play on the runner supposedly obstructed?

Nope - because there is no rule like that. How about a runner rounding third and F5 gets in her way and makes her change her path and pace to avoid a crash - and gets thrown out at the plate? F5 was not making a play but still obstructed - runner is awarded home. Right?