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A force at any base requires the fielder have possession or control of the ball before the runner touches the base. If the ball pops out and the runner then touches the base before control is gained, then you have "safe." Our situation is a tag of a runner. I think that you have an out the instant of the tag, as long as you do not lose the ball to the ground. And even there we have an issue on the amount of time that elasped after the tag and before the ball came out. (See old post referenced above.) IMO, if the ball comes lose as a result of the contact and the defender regains control of the ball, even if the plate or bag is now touched by the runner, you have an out. How many times have you stood over a defender and said "show me the ball!" You don't care if she bobbled the ball, you are only insuring that it is not on or did not touch the ground. So if you accept the premise that a bobbled ball that is captured before touching the ground results in an out, then the questions is what if the loose ball touches the runner? Is the runner part of the ground? WMB |
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ASA Rule 1-Tag.B
Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove. It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe. If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.
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Safe, Safe, Safe!!!!! What if the catcher blocked the plate and applied the tag cleanly, the ball pops up in the air two feet and the catcher catches the ball? If you call the runner out, I hope I am not your partner for that game cause I'm sure I would have to remove 3 coaches and 14 parents from your hinder parts. What's the difference between 2ft and 2 inches in this case?
Last edited by goldcoastump; Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 01:27pm. |
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Just my thought. |
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Safe on both.
Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules. Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out. In the OP, it is obvious from the description that the ball was not held securely at the moment of the tag, since the tag itself caused the ball to dislodge. The fielder's ability to regain possession has nothing to do with it. Safe.
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Larry Ledbetter NFHS, NCAA, NAIA The best part about beating your head against the wall is it feels so good when you stop. |
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We're talking about possession on a tag, not the act of GAINING possession in the first place. A tag, not a catch.
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson |
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Larry Ledbetter NFHS, NCAA, NAIA The best part about beating your head against the wall is it feels so good when you stop. |
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I don't care what type of tag it was, what I posted is what I meant, it doesn't change.
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The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball. |
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Larry Ledbetter NFHS, NCAA, NAIA The best part about beating your head against the wall is it feels so good when you stop. |
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There is plenty of rule book precidence for this. for example the fence is dirt. It can cause a ball to be foul, can be climbed up or walked on for an out, Umpires as well can not be deflected off of and have a legal catch made. the runner is dirt as well unless they interfere with a fielder making a play. If they accidently kick the ball or are hit by a ball, it as if they are dirt, play on. I am still trying to understand your argument and your reasoning for an out in Sit 1, but Sit 2 is clearly safe to me. |
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Dunno about you guys, but I gotta keep this simple or I'm gonna drive myself freakin' nuts.
No control, no out. That goes for a catch, a tag, or a force out. I'm in trouble if I overthink this.
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"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson |
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1B definitely had caught the ball, controlled it and had the base. There is the out. The subsequent contact with Batter Runner did not change this call. |
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