Have you an out? - Page 2

mcrowder · #16 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 02:39pm

Safe on both.

Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules.

Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out.

In the OP, it is obvious from the description that the ball was not held securely at the moment of the tag, since the tag itself caused the ball to dislodge. The fielder's ability to regain possession has nothing to do with it. Safe.

Mountaineer · #17 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Safe on both.

Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules.

I disagree. The rule book clearly states that a catch is "gaining control" of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.

Quote:

Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out.

In this instance, they were attempting to remove the ball from the glove and I find that to be intentional - I can't penalize her for someone else knocking it out of her hand for that.

Mountaineer · #18 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 04:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

mcrowder · #19 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I disagree. The rule book clearly states that a catch is "gaining control" of a batted, pitched or thrown ball.

Exactly. Voluntary release is ONE method (and not the only method) to determine of a fielder gained control on a catch. It does not (and never has) mean that there MUST be voluntary release for there to be a catch and/or possession.

We're talking about possession on a tag, not the act of GAINING possession in the first place. A tag, not a catch.

IRISHMAFIA · #20 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

Did I say that? Turn that filter off.

I don't care what type of tag it was, what I posted is what I meant, it doesn't change.

DonP · #21 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 08:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

loose ball touches the runner? Is the runner part of the ground?

WMB

Yes, the runner is "dirt" . Therefore in your situation 2, if the ball goes from glove-leg-glove, the leg "grounds" the ball. runner safe.

There is plenty of rule book precidence for this. for example the fence is dirt. It can cause a ball to be foul, can be climbed up or walked on for an out, Umpires as well can not be deflected off of and have a legal catch made. the runner is dirt as well unless they interfere with a fielder making a play. If they accidently kick the ball or are hit by a ball, it as if they are dirt, play on. I am still trying to understand your argument and your reasoning for an out in Sit 1, but Sit 2 is clearly safe to me.

noobie · #22 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 26, 2006, 10:00pm

Dunno about you guys, but I gotta keep this simple or I'm gonna drive myself freakin' nuts.

No control, no out. That goes for a catch, a tag, or a force out. I'm in trouble if I overthink this.

mcrowder · #23 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 27, 2006, 07:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by noobie

Dunno about you guys, but I gotta keep this simple or I'm gonna drive myself freakin' nuts.

No control, no out. That goes for a catch, a tag, or a force out. I'm in trouble if I overthink this.

It's probably best not to overthink. However, make sure your judgement on control on a forceplay is different than on a tag. On a force out, if they have control and are touching the base, it's an out. Even if subsequent contact with the incoming runner dislodges the ball. This differs from a tag in that if the tag causes the ball to dislodge, you don't have a tag.

baldgriff · #24 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 27, 2006, 08:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcrowder

It's probably best not to overthink. However, make sure your judgement on control on a forceplay is different than on a tag. On a force out, if they have control and are touching the base, it's an out. Even if subsequent contact with the incoming runner dislodges the ball. This differs from a tag in that if the tag causes the ball to dislodge, you don't have a tag.

I had this happen last night in my first game. Batter hits the ball to SS. SS throws to 1B who stretches and "sno-cone" catches the ball. As he is showing me the ball and I make sure he held the foot, the Batter-Runner knocks the ball out with his shoulder.
1B definitely had caught the ball, controlled it and had the base. There is the out. The subsequent contact with Batter Runner did not change this call.

Dakota · #25 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 27, 2006, 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldgriff

The subsequent contact with Batter Runner did not change this call.

But I'll bet you got a few howls from the peanut gallery!

CecilOne · #26 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 27, 2006, 09:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota

But I'll bet you got a few howls from the peanut gallery!

That reminds me of a story.
The Baseball Game
A doctor at an insane asylum decided to take his patients to a
baseball game. For weeks in advance, he coached his patients to
respond to his commands.

When the day of the game arrived, everything went quite well. As
the National Anthem started, the doctor yelled, "Up Nuts," and the
patients complied by standing up. After the anthem, he yelled, "Down Nuts," and they all sat back down in their seats.

After a home run was hit, the doctor yelled, "Cheer Nuts". They
all broke out into applause and cheered. When the umpire made a particularly bad call against the star of the home team, the Doctor yelled, "Booooo Nuts," and they all started booing and cat calling.

Comfortable with their response, the doctor decided to go get a
beer and a hot dog, leaving his assistant in charge. When he returned, there was a riot in progress. Finding his tizzied assistant, the doctor asked, "What in the world happened?"

The assistant replied, "Well everything was going just fine until
this guy walked by and yelled, "PEANUTS!"