Have you an out?

[Andy]

Didn't we have a similar discussion not too long ago?

Control (out) or not?

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Andy

Didn't we have a similar discussion not too long ago?

Control (out) or not?

Similar, but not the same. In that thread we talked about losing possesion of the ball after a tag and the discussion centered about how long the defender had to have the ball after the tag and before losing the ball.

In my case, the defender did not lose the ball; she bobbled the ball and then regained possession in her glove. The tag is made, the ball pops out, and the catcher dives over the runner and catches the ball before it hits the ground. Based on Mike Rowe's position in the previous thread, I believe my call of out is correct.

But then I modified the situation, asking what your call would be if the ball touched the runner before the catcher regained possession of the ball?

Is it like the ball bouncing off the CF's glove into the wall and back into the glove (ala the NCAA World Series thread a year ago)?

Or does Mike's interpretation of tag rules, as explained in the old thread, still hold sway in this case?

WMB

[NDblue]

WMB,

You still don't have an out. Possession was not maintained when the tag was applied. The ball not touching the ground is not an issue here. The ball "popping" out as the tag was applied shows me that control was not maintained. It's like a 1B bobbling the ball on a force at first. No control = no out.

[Mountaineer]

I know in NF not only do they have to "hold the ball long enough to prove she has control of the ball" but also that "her release of the ball is voluntary and intentional". Since I am not doing ASA this year I had to go back to last year's rule book (05). It basically uses the same verbage. In the situation - as described - the release of the ball was not "voluntary and intentional". Therefore, you cannot have an out. I went back and read the other thread and the same thing holds true there - if the release is not "voluntary and intentional" it is not a catch (which by rule is the fielder gaining control of a batted, pitched or thrown ball).

Safe!

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by NDblue

WMB,

You still don't have an out. Possession was not maintained when the tag was applied. The ball not touching the ground is not an issue here. The ball "popping" out as the tag was applied shows me that control was not maintained. It's like a 1B bobbling the ball on a force at first. No control = no out.

I disagree. A catch of a batted or fly ball has these control and voluntary release issues. We are not talking about a catch.

A force at any base requires the fielder have possession or control of the ball before the runner touches the base. If the ball pops out and the runner then touches the base before control is gained, then you have "safe."

Our situation is a tag of a runner. I think that you have an out the instant of the tag, as long as you do not lose the ball to the ground. And even there we have an issue on the amount of time that elasped after the tag and before the ball came out. (See old post referenced above.)

IMO, if the ball comes lose as a result of the contact and the defender regains control of the ball, even if the plate or bag is now touched by the runner, you have an out. How many times have you stood over a defender and said "show me the ball!" You don't care if she bobbled the ball, you are only insuring that it is not on or did not touch the ground.

So if you accept the premise that a bobbled ball that is captured before touching the ground results in an out, then the questions is what if the loose ball touches the runner? Is the runner part of the ground?

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

Is that the same as calling safe "Assuming the drop in S1 was part of the tag action and not a subsequent activity. If the fielder had control through the course of the tag and the drop was after the fact, caused by something else, probably out."

Safe, Safe, Safe!!!!! What if the catcher blocked the plate and applied the tag cleanly, the ball pops up in the air two feet and the catcher catches the ball? If you call the runner out, I hope I am not your partner for that game cause I'm sure I would have to remove 3 coaches and 14 parents from your hinder parts. What's the difference between 2ft and 2 inches in this case?

[baldgriff]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

Just reading this and thinking about it. IF the fielder touches the runner with the ball securely held in their glove, then they should be holding it securely after the tag also. If they cant demonstrate that they held it securely by "showing you the ball" then they didnt sufficiently secure it.

Just my thought.

[mcrowder]

Safe on both.

Voluntary release has nothing to do with this though - you guys are mixing your rules.

Picture this... Runner comes in sliding, fielder applies tag and has possession of the ball. Then A) as she's switching hands for a double play or B) runner pops up from slide and hits the glove (separate contact from the tag), and the ball comes out. In both A and B, you have a valid tag (and no voluntary release), and you have an out.

In the OP, it is obvious from the description that the ball was not held securely at the moment of the tag, since the tag itself caused the ball to dislodge. The fielder's ability to regain possession has nothing to do with it. Safe.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

ASA Rule 1-Tag.B

Touching the runner or batter-runner with the ball while securely held in the hand or glove.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the ball touching the ground, body, uniforn, etc. If the ball came loose instantaneous with the tag, then obviously the defender was not in secure possession of the ball and the runner should be ruled safe.

If the ball came loose after the tag as the defender was withdrawing the glove/ball from the runner and in the umpire's judgment, after the tag was made with the ball being held securely, it is an out.

So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

So on a swipe tag that jars the ball loose you have an out as well?

Did I say that? Turn that filter off.

I don't care what type of tag it was, what I posted is what I meant, it doesn't change.

[DonP]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

loose ball touches the runner? Is the runner part of the ground?

WMB

Yes, the runner is "dirt" . Therefore in your situation 2, if the ball goes from glove-leg-glove, the leg "grounds" the ball. runner safe.

There is plenty of rule book precidence for this. for example the fence is dirt. It can cause a ball to be foul, can be climbed up or walked on for an out, Umpires as well can not be deflected off of and have a legal catch made. the runner is dirt as well unless they interfere with a fielder making a play. If they accidently kick the ball or are hit by a ball, it as if they are dirt, play on. I am still trying to understand your argument and your reasoning for an out in Sit 1, but Sit 2 is clearly safe to me.

[noobie]

Dunno about you guys, but I gotta keep this simple or I'm gonna drive myself freakin' nuts.

No control, no out. That goes for a catch, a tag, or a force out. I'm in trouble if I overthink this.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by noobie

Dunno about you guys, but I gotta keep this simple or I'm gonna drive myself freakin' nuts.

No control, no out. That goes for a catch, a tag, or a force out. I'm in trouble if I overthink this.

It's probably best not to overthink. However, make sure your judgement on control on a forceplay is different than on a tag. On a force out, if they have control and are touching the base, it's an out. Even if subsequent contact with the incoming runner dislodges the ball. This differs from a tag in that if the tag causes the ball to dislodge, you don't have a tag.