Time limit - -when does clock start running
 

Does anyone know the ASA rule and/or case book cite for when the clock starts running in a time limit game. This happens to be a slow-picth league and the local rules are silent as to when the time starts.

I seem to recall an ASA rule added in the last three years that says it starts running at the first pitch. I could be wrong, though.

We had an ASA umpire that started the clock running during the coaches meeting. Thanks in advance.

Tap

The only thing I know of in ASA for time limit is for JO ball. With that it starts at the time of the first pitch. In the adult games I have done in the past where local organizations have put in a time limit, our local policy was to start it at the end of the plate conference.

ASA rule 5-10 " When the time limit rule is in effect, time begins with the first pitch."

You are correct as far as ASA; however, this is something you should address to the league director. Our city league scorcekeepers start time when the home team is called to take the field after the Mgr's conference.

Theoretically, the difference between the defense taking the field and the first pitch is less than one minute.

I've had various instructions for starting the clock from leagues and TDs. It is not unusual to be told to start the clock at the end of the plate meeting, and to make sure the coaches know the clock has been started. The objective is to encourage a bit of hustle in getting the game underway.

For my normal league games, I will start the timer at the throw down from the catcher. Close enough to first pitch while not requiring that I be still fiddling with the timer when getting set for the pitch.

The championship play rule (ASA rule) seems to assume that an official scorekeeper exists. It is not really workable for the umpire to be starting the clock while the pitch is being released.

The key to ASA 5-10 is that it does only refer to championship play. And, it also specifies 1:40 in JO fastpitch play only. So, one might conclude, theefore, that this only applies to games required to have this time limit per ASA Code 510-O.

Secondly, the rationale described in 2005 when the rule was incorporated was "Now that time limits have been authorized, there should be a definitive starting time." Not that there is some magic in the first pitch, just that it should be definitive.

Guaranteed that your local league isn't playing strictly championship rules; and you already stated it is a slow pitch league, games not covered by ASA Code 510-O. So, if there is a definitive start time, then you have followed the intent of a rule which doesn't specifically apply to your games.

In the LL I do, the clock starts at the end of the plate meeting. I walk over the home team scorer and give her an official time.

New question:
Does the next inning begin when the third out of the current inning is made?
IOW if the third out of the bottom half of the inning is made and time is expired (or expires before the home team takes the field on Defense) is the game over?
It is the bold section that I am wondering

Speaking ASA.

The new inning begins immediately upon recording the 3rd out of the bottom half of the previous inning. ASA Rule 1-INNING.

So, if there is time remaining when the third out is recorded, you play one more inning. If time has expired before the third out is recorded, game over (unless tied). If time expires during the warmups for the next inning, it doesn't matter since the next inning has started and must be completed.

All of this is technically the rule. As a practical matter, depending on circumstances, what constitutes "time remaining" may be, (ahem), "interpreted" by the umpire.

gotcha Tom ;)

Speaking ASA

A couple of years ago before the start time was defined, there was a suggested rule "add" which would have started the clock at the end of the plate meeting. The problem was that many of the slow-pitch folks couldn't understand why this was necessary since it only involved FP, 10U & pool play.

Even after a careful explanation to a couple of the committees, and instruction by a member of the NUS that it very much affected the SP game, the committee chose to not recommend the proposal. I believe moreso because they just didn't understand it. For clarification concerning the SP game, the year prior, ASA Reps & TD were given the authority to do whatever necessary to complete a tournament and using a time limit was one of the tools accepted in accomplishing that feat.

Apparently the light bulb came on as the following year it was defined by the first pitch.

I usually don't go by time of day, to avoid watch synch problems. I use a stop watch and announce "90 minutes, time starts "NOW", after getting both scorers attention.

I don't see a whole lot of "time limit" games. Some of the games I do see should have a time limit, but that's another subject.

In the games that are timed, I use my watch and nobody sees the exact time except me. I make note of the start time and the limit on the home team's lineup card. By the book, time starts with the first pitch - I'll inform both head coaches after the first half inning what the start time was. And, as long as both teams are moving at the same pace, I don't hurry anyone - it's their game and they have agreed on the pace of the game. If one team hustles and one doesn't, I'll try to move the slow one along.

Are you "wearing" that watch? :)

Yes, I wear my watch and my adjustable hat and my shin guards on the outside of my pants - is that OK?

Not being sarcastic...are we?

We always use 1st pitch here....dont deny the kids any playing time....

I don't deny them any playing time either. But, if they, or their coaches, do, by huddling instead of starting the game, that is their fault.

Time wasted by them shouldn't be our time. One team is the home team; take the field and start the game!!

I couldn't care less about your hat or your shin guards but isn't a watch considered jewelry?

Seriously, we have an umpire around here who insists on wearing his inside chest protector on the outside. :confused:

We have quite a few men who wear the adjustable hat. At a recent tournament, had one young umpire ask if I had an extra hat... it seems his adjustable hat's plastic bit had snapped in two when he put it on... he had it held together with a safety pin! I considered it a "teachable moment"... doubt if it sunk in, though. :rolleyes:

On a JO player, maybe. Would you judge it to be a safety hazard on an umpire?

Actually, it is just bad form for the umpire to wear a watch.

I don't use a watch just to avoid hours / minutes math.

Coach: "How much time's left, Blue."

Me (thinking): "Start time 6:17. Time limit 65 minutes. Now it is 6:51. Uhhh... Uhhh... " (now out loud) "About half an hour, coach." (thinking again) "I hope that is close..."

I use a count-down timer with an alarm when time expires. I use my watch (in my pocket...) as a backup in case the count-down timer has an issue.

Now, the conversation goes like this:

Coach: "What was our start time, Blue." (asked about 3 innings into the game)

Me: "Beats me, coach!" (enjoying the look on his face while I pull out the timer)... "But there's about 32 minutes left."

:D

In a perfect world, it would be:

Coach: How much time is left, blue?

Blue: Don't care, coach. Just play the game.

:D

I've got an irritating problem with local Blues at the last two open tourneys in Central Tx. Website advertising tourney says the E games will be 70 minutes. At the plate conference, Blue announces "70 minute ballgame no inning to start after 65."

We will play till we have a winner, so now we're really talking about a 65 minute time length, mentioning 70 minutes in this manner is superfluous.

The shaving of the five minutes isn't bothering me, the $24 paid to the umps hasn't changed for the last couple of years but his/her gas price sure has so no big deal.

My problem is there is often only one Blue at these plate conferences, and that Blue starts the clock as soon as the conference ends. Now, we wait another 2-3 minutes after the home team takes the field for the other ump to show so we can start the ballgame. I have been insisting that we not start the clock until the other blue is on the field. A couple of umps have worked with me and agreed to wait (although they are clearly put out that I would make such an issue out of it.)

You ask, where is the other Blue? Extending his break, using restroom, hustling over from another field, I don't know. I just know I have 11 sets of kids and parents I have to get into this ballgame and the more the time is squeezed the less I can get meaningful participation.

Please give me your thumbs up or thumbs down on whether I should let this go or keep being a burr in their blanket. I have not found any rule book guidance that I can use on the Blues, and remember, these are open tourneys , so you get what you pay for...........

As was pointed out earlier in this thead, more than a year earlier, ASA uses the first pitch. I don't care for it, but that's the rule. However, since you mention "E" level, it is probably not ASA. For that matter, I've never heard of "E" ball at the youth level of any sanctioning body. That must be some pretty bad ball. :D

Besides, this isn't an umpire issue as they do not determine time limits.

E meant bracket or elimination game as opposed to pool games.

It is not unusual for tournaments to specify that the clock starts immediately after the plate meeting. It helps keep the games on schedule.

It is also not unusual at tournaments for umpires to be late getting to a field, due to the previous game. However, it would just seem to be good sense to not start the clock before the umpire crew is all there.

I suggest you discuss your issues with the tounament director.

For all of our local tourneys, moststart it after the meeting.. Usually I start it right the time home starts taking the field.. ie I give them their little rah rah time, then I go. Many don't do that.

At the risk of incurring wrath:

1. Why start the clock at any time other than on the first pitch? the only exception I can see that is fair to the teams is to add one minute and start it at the end of the plate conference. The home team has been determined by this time.

2. What in the !$#@ gives us the RIGHT to "interpret" anything concerning time, time limits or time remaining? It is not our game, our field or our anything. These teams pay beau coups bucks (including your pay) to play in these tournaments. If they have, say, a 1:20 time limit, interpreting that to mean 1:18 or anything else less than 1:20 is no less of a sin than, say, a supermarket checker or bank teller tapping the till. If you feel that you need to "interpret" 1:20 as something less, you're stealing from the players and stealing from the game. That is not my opinion; that is fact.

Last weekend, we were in a 24 team tourney, and although we opted out of having an if game, we still didn't conclude playing until 11:00 PM Sunday and we had a 1 hour drive ahead of us. Blue also had a drive ahead of him and a work day coming up in just a few short hours.

If reasonable people acted reasonably, we could start time with first pitch. But, coaching teenagers is like herding cats. The Blue needs a hammer to keep the tournament moving as fast as he can.

Even in non tourney league type play, I would start the clock at the conclusion of the plate conference. That beginning coach who insists every one of his kids has to field one more ground ball before heading to the dugout is delaying bed time/study time for all.

Talking to the TD won't do any good. Last summer I raised the issue of how the tourney advertisement says 70 minutes but the blues are only allowing 65.
TD talked to the UIC, but the UIC wouldn't budge. So now, 65 is a local custom for these open tourneys. What I intend to do next weekend is let the other coach pay the ump who conducts the plate conference and I will pay the other ump when he finally shows. Anything over 2 minutes late and he will have a pro-rated fee waiting for him.

Nope, you start the clock in anything less than championship play.

You go.

I've worked with umps like you who start late, run their fields late.. etc.. that just messes up everyone... by the end of the day, because of your "clock morals" the fields 45 mins late and everything is screwed up. Your partners are screwed up, field crews are screwed up, teams are screwed up TD is NOT happy, the only one happy is your clock moral angel on your shoulder.

YOu'll actually find it VERY rare these parents paying all this $$ would ever complain that you keep it moving. They are sitting there all day too.

Just go.. keep everything moving, everyones happy. No need to be anal about the clock morals there pal.

Oh yeah, and I'd me remiss if I didnt add, that in nonchampionship tourney play; in order to maintain proper tournament Zen, you must also be creative with ending it as well..

You better be careful bkbjones, you might find yourself working in Delaware.

In the vast majority of our tournaments, the games are 1:20 with a new game starting at 1:30. The games start at 8am and usually end around 10 pm. The fields are worked by a 3 man crew (2 working the game 1 guy off). PU rotates to BU. Off guy goes to PU. BU guy gets a game off. The base guy will stay on the field to start the new game while the PU is getting his crap off so he can work the bases.

There isnt a lot of time for the clock moral police and it really screws it up for everyone, including the beloved girls and their paying parents, when one of them is in your crew.

Which would mean he is highly qualified and offered access to good and accurate training.

The reason I tried to get it moved to the end of the pre-game meeting was to encourage the coaches to get the team on the field and playing. Instead, there is a waste of time before you get that first pitch. I know you have seen this happen after the pre-game. Coach has a team meeting outside the dugout. Players move to their position with bench players on the lines to help them warm up (like they need it after spending the past hour going through drills elsewhere), the coach meandering around the circle talking to the pitcher while she it slowly and deliberately going through her warm-ups. At the same time, the offense has their own little meeting, the first batter waits until after the meeting to find her helmet, bat and any other paraphenailia she may need to bat.

Of course, everyone is going to say that it's the umpire's fault for not enforcing the one minute warm-up time for the pitcher. And that is true, though it will start the game off on the wrong foot for the crew. You also have the coach which holds the pitcher until the rest of the team is on the field.

Speaking ASA, it is also the rule. Like the teams who have no complaint about time limits advertised before getting into the tournament, the umpires should have no complaint about allowing the full time to expire before ending a game.

BTW, let me know anytime you are hitting the Midatlantic area, I would welcome you help on the field.

If the UIC tells me the clock starts at the conclusion of the plate meeting, then that is when the clock starts. If he tells me that it starts with the first warm-up pitch, then that is when I start the clock. If he tells me that I should start with the first pitch of the game, then that is when I start it. It is really a pretty simple concept.

Since I'm beginning to do more of these timed games - means more youth tournaments instead of adult tournamens - I went & bought one of those countdown timers. It's easy enough to hit start when I say "Play" - that's close enough to the first pitch.
As for ending it before the time limit, nah, let them play.

Wade - kinda a different topic, but you said that your folks use a base-to-plate-to-off rotation. When I was working 2 on & 1 off, I always preferred the plat-to-base-to-off rotation as it meant that fresh legs were comingonto the plate. We would have the former base ump stay for the start of the game while the PU changed to keep things moving. For the past several years, I really prefer the 1-on, 1-off rotation with 4 umps to a field. Call it age or whatever, but this way, I can give every game all the intensity it deserves.

With such a tight schedule (assuming they are finishing all innings), I can understand the desire to cheat on the clock to keep fields and umpires on schedule.

However, why does it fall to the umpire to keep things on schedule with a secret "actual" time limit?

Its not a secret, I use one of the countdown kitchen timers that the coaches can look at when they want to, announce when I start the clock, and usually announce when there is around 10 mins left. Most coaches around here are pretty familiar with how these exposure tournies go.

Time
 

In our local SB beer leagues we have gametime as start time. If a game runs long the next start time is 5 minutes after end of previous game.

I have seen in our JO tourneys, time and it's application,evolve into very controversial stuff.
I personally have been reamed by more senior umps for starting a new inning when there was 2 minutes left. This was a 1 run game and quite frankly I was having a blast.
I have been uncomfortable when I am expected to lie/cheat people on the time stuff. I was BU when PU announced "Time has expired" and the losing team wanted another inning. The problem was the PU jerked them out of about 2 minutes. I just happened to keep time for myself that game and apparently so did the losing team. Big yelling, big protest. Finally UIC asked me if I had anything to add. :( . PU and some fellow umps pissed at me, some umps had my back, UIC not happy he asked me, assignor calls me at home and says.......good job-he's got my back........So my choices were back my partner who knowingly shorted them or tell what I had :mad:

bottom line for me is I go by the book ...no more no less.....

And going by the book is honestly one of the easiest ways you can always protect yourself in these kinds of situations. I've been bitten a number of times when there's only 35 seconds left on the clock, and the third out of the bottom half of the inning is made, forcing the game to go another disasterous 10-15 minutes. I hate it, it sucks, but hey... What can you do?

If your partner is in a hurry to get home, barring any emergency circumstances, why are they even bothering to umpire in the first place? Shorting teams their playing time only sends the message that the umpire is letting their schedule bias their calls (more outs = getting home faster, and the PU calling "ball" on good pitches = running out the clock). It even flies in the face of our own rule book which prohibits teams from monkeying with the clock through noticeable delays of the game.

In uniform, I have nowhere else to be other than the ballfield for the duration of the games. Period. If an umpire doesn't like that fact, at bare minimum they shouldn't call with me, or even not call at all.

Edited: Changed "fewest" to "easiest." My statement reads better that way.

Then I don't understand your previous post.
bkbjones wrote...
To which you resonded...
So, naturally, I assumed you considered "time expired" to mean "less than 2 minutes remain."

Is that not what you meant?

There is no connection, BTW, between keeping an accurate clock and keeping the game moving. Completely separate issues, and I agree some umpires (and some teams) are very bad at one, the other, or both.

I agree... be as straightforward with the clock as possible. No mysterious start times, no mysterious time expireds, be direct with the coaches when time starts, how much time is left, and so on.

The controversies cannot happen when everyone knows the clock situation and when it will expire.

Well, at least not THOSE controversies... you'll still have the stalling, etc., to deal with.

Actually... I had one game where one of the players smarted off to me to hurry the batter up (and believe me, this was immediately after an out was caught) because time was running out. I called time, told him to knock it off (the attitude towards me), and continued the game. In the end, this same jerk is the one who got tossed by me at the end of the game in this post.

Controversies can still happen. Time being posted on the board does not eliminate them - sometimes, it creates them! ;)

Though all things being equal, if they know as much as possible about the game situation, they have less room to gripe.

No worries... although I appreciate the offer, I wouldn't let Mike subject otherwise good umpires and teams with a POS clock nazi like me.

(hears sighs of relief from NUS and others)

I said you deal with it creatively.. one creative method is..

If you see you are coming up on a wobbler inning (ie it could last long enough to be over OR it could go quickly and you have to start a new inning)..

You tell both coaches "coach, this is probably the last inning". "OK BLUE!" the coach goes to work "alright girls this is IT!!!!"

So, presuming some non champ game where no one really cares - in most cases that starts the "last inning fervor" culminating with the supreme moment where both teams line up for the hand slaps..

Regardless of the time left on the clock, and the umpire didnt say a word except "probably" at the top of the inning.. which will give you wiggle room if you MUST start a new inning.

Creative dealing with the clock.

a few nights ago in beer league the guys all lined up with 7 mins left on the clock. They just all lined up. I think at the top of the inning some guy asked "how much time we got blue" .. I said "we're getting close to the end, I'll check for you".. then I just never checked for him. My clock is right there for all to see, not a hidden watch.. creativeness.

Now I'm sure lots of umps would have ran out and demanded they play another inning, me I couldnt hit reset on my timer quick enough.

We used to have this discussion with umpires when I was the league administrator and we were ASA. Back then there was nothing in the rule book, and they insisted on starting the clock when the home team took the field. If I recall correctly, I found a section in the ASA scorekeeper's guide that said the clock started when the plate umpire called, "Play ball!" Since then the ASA has added the FP rule, but not done anything about the SP rule. I do not know if the scorekeeper's guide has been revised (or, frankly, if my recollection that it was there was correct to begin with).

I do know that we are now NSA and in our league the time starts when the PU says, "Play ball!" The exception is the first game of league-play nights, when the clock starts at 6:30 whether the teams are ready or not.

Also, we did have an umpire call a game one night when we were ASA because, as she said, "No inning starts when there are less than five minutes left on the clock." We later determined that she had learned this from a local military league where that is, in fact, the rule.

Well, that just isn't so. ASA does not differentiate SP from FP.

The time limit issues use to be kept in the code. I guess someone realized that since the umpires are the officials which enforce such rules it should be included in the rule book.