NW vs. Bama and Plate Umpire!
 

Did you see the 6th inning of the Bama NW game? First the PU gives a girl 1st base on a ball that hit the knob of the bat. Then, he gives a girl a base hit on a ball that hit her out of the box. On top of that he gives a girl a walk on a pitch on the corner and at the knees. It resulted in two runs and a 5 to 4 lead. Well the bottom of the 7th inning is coming up so as Yogi says..."it's not over till it's over"... I don't have a favorite (except for TN.) :) but I hope the wildcats come through with a win because the umpire blew it big time. ...Nothin' like fun at the ole' ball park! ...Al

NW beat Alabama 6-5 in 10.

These were D1 umpires? Man, that PU looked really bad on several situations.

What about that 3B umpire? What was she watching? She should have seen the second "kicked" call. And what about that foul call she made, the one the PU called fair...at the same time?

An assumption we can make after seeing the pitch five times in slow motion instead of the .25 seconds Scott Thomas had to make the call.

No, he did not give the BR first base. He simply ruled it a batted ball. The fact that it hit the batter should have been picked up by the 3B umpire. It wasn't.

The pitch was called a ball "at the knees" because the knees are NOT in the strike zone.



Now, the pitch that hit the 'Bama batter on the knee with no effort on her behalf to avoid it should have been seen.

Hi Mike,

Forget the slow motion. The call where he awarded the girl 1st base was very poor. Sure it happened fast, but the second it happened it was pretty obvious the ball hit the bat and not her hand. In cases similar, with the sound the ball made, and no pain displayed by the batter I have never seen the umpire award a base.

The one where the ball was kicked after the girl was out of the box should have been seen by the PU, IMO. It was a batted ball, but it also was a kicked ball and he was right there in front of it. The umpire on 3rd was not asked for help and didn't offer any. She also made a poor call on a ball that was touched in fair ground by calling it a foul ball.

The pitch at the knees that he called a ball was at the top of the front knee. It was in the zone at the corner of the plate as well. Of course it's a judgement call and he made the same call against Alabama that would have ended the game, but there were a couple of times that he called pitches that appeared to be in the exact same locations strikes.

Yes, I saw that award go to a girl that didn't try to move away, in fact she moved slightly towards the ball as if to make sure that the ball would hit her. Of all the games I watched; that game had more than it's share of booted calls. I am not one who could have at this point in my experience, but I'm sure you and others on this forum would have done a better job. The teams deserve better, especially the pitchers. ....Al

I understand the concerns, but I also know what it like behind the plate, and I wouldn't second guess someone selected to work the WCWS and what they saw/called in contrast to what I saw from a distorted camera angle.

JMO

Well I didn't get the call to work those games, and I'm sure not gonna be too critical of those who did. Overall they do a fine job.

I may though not have agreed with some of the plate calls, but I got to see the replays.

All I will say is on the second HB in question, where the ball rolled off the batters leg out of the box, I beliieve when the ball contacted the knob of the bat, or the batter (which ever you would have called), the PU came up with a Dead Ball Signal (and possibly call) BEFORE the ball hit the runner. If that were the case the ball off the leg would be a mute point. Dead ball, batter awarded first.

I watched for that on the replays, and was convinced that was the "chain of events". I just called what I saw though, I could be wrong!

QC Umpire
 

The thing that looked bad in the batter/runner being hit by the batted ball, was the PU started to kill the play. Replays show his hands going up in the air, so either he was anticpating a call (and we all know that is bad) or he had some doubt that the ball may have struck the batter/runner.

Even my 8-year-old daughter knows that when the umpire's hands go in the air above his/her head it is the signal for deadball.

I agree, the third base umpire kicked the call as well, she should have been killing the play immediately.

That's where the Northwestern Coach should have been talking to the umpire crew...instead of the later in the game when she kept her runners on base after the double play on the flyout to left field.

It wasn't obvious, even after a few replays! And how do you know what sound it made, were you on the field?

In this case, she shouldn't wait to be asked if she saw it. For that matter, it might have been just as clear to the umpire at 2B. Either could have made that call without waiting for the PU if they saw it.

I disagree. The catcher was pulling the pitch up and attempting to frame the pitch with the mitt inverted. The pitch, for this particular batter, looked like a ball to me.

"Quote:
Then, he gives a girl a base hit on a ball that hit her out of the box.


No, he did not give the BR first base. He simply ruled it a batted ball. The fact that it hit the batter should have been picked up by the 3B umpire. It wasn't."

Granted, I was watching this game through semi closed eyelids - but I would have sworn I saw his hands come up and it looked like he ruled this a HBP. The runner surely did not run hard to 1B - more like a trot. I would think if it had been judged a batted ball, Northwestern's coach would have been all over him - I'd have sworn she stayed in the dugout this time.

I couldn't tell if he was killing the ball or just moving his arms while removing the mask to avoid hitting the catcher. I think it may just have been a reaction and the umpire was looking for the players to tell him what happened by their actions. I don't think the players cooperated very well ;)

The 3B umpire in the NW/AL game was the same Lisa Harvey behind the plate in the UCLA/TN game.

How does the 3B ump EVER signal FOUL BALL on a ball bounding over 3B? That is a rookie mistake in making the call, and doubly worse that it was the wrong call, triple worse that it contradicted the PU. She was lost out there, but she has being given "the opportunity" based on way more than her skill.

That's not correct, Tony. The U3 in NW vs AL was Sally Walker, U1 was Diane Beasley, and PU was Scott Thomas; their other game was AZ vs OSU. Lisa's crew (Jeff Sloan and John Kurnat) worked UCLA vs TN, and ASU vs TX.

Lisa Harvey is an exceptional umpire, who very much earned her way; as has Sally Walker. This is not either's first time to the NCAA WCWS.

But, I can't say I know what Sally was doing on that play.

If I was any kind of guy, I would say, "Give the girl a break".

Thanks for the right names.

foul ball
 

I have always been told that if an umpire calls the ball foul then it is foul no matter where it goes. It was clear that the third base umpire called this ball foul. How can they keep playing? Is there a case book play that covers this situation. What if the plate umpire had called it foul and the third base umpire called it fair. Would we just play on? It clearly would put one team at a disadvatage.

I doubt there was a "verbal" call of foul and the PU probably already indicated fair.

The worst case scenario would be to place the BR on 1B and advance any runner forced.

That was Sally?
 

If that was Sally Walker, she is a very well respected ump. I unfortunately, haven't had a chance to watch any games this year with work, so I didn't even know she was working the WS. Perhaps, she just had a bad game? You hope it doesn't happen at the CSWS, but hey, it can creep on you at any time.

more importantly lets talk about the four minute arguement that took place between the NW coach and the three umps.

They broke for commercial arguing and came back and it was still going! Probably around the 8th inning. line drive to LF, who catches and throws to first...what on earth could this arguement be about?!


A little PS about the First base ump in this game; I was once assigned a tourmament in Peoria, IL where she was also assigned. She got her assignment and told the UIC that she doesnt work 12 and under softball because she is "an SEC umpire" real great attitude to have. She told the UIC to move her up or she is going home; she went back to Tenn that day.

It's a shame
 

Couldn’t believe my eyes… This topic is a PUBLIC one.
And some of YOU umpires express the WORST attitude an umpire may have: mud on a collegue!
No matter if he/she is a respected umpire, no matter if he/she has a top-level (difficult) game to deal with… he/she under the spot and just for this reason deserves to be put down!
It’s a shame. And I really feel ashamed for you ALL.

What I teach in training sessions here in Italy (in our small wolrd of small softball umpires) is ‘never criticize another umpire’ and ‘when you cannot say something good about him/her, simply shut up and move away’!!
On this board… well my friends, I learned a lot here…
But this time it was not good stuff…

I do not leave in a World of Dreams. I perfectly know umpires are not perfect. I can detect an umpire’s mistake if and when I see one. Even when a mistake is something only another umpire can get. I often discuss about this kind of situation with other umpires FAR AWAY from other than umpire’s ears! …but what ALL this topic as to do with this? Nothing. To me: there was someone assigned where someone else couldn’t get assigned and this someone else is feeling bad about this…

Am I wrong?

Ciao

Antonella,


Good post!

The WCWS is a good opportunity to watch top softball umpires at work. Commenting on the umpiring of the WCWS is an annual thing here. The names of the umpires in each crew and where they were in each game is "public record."

Personally, I have no problem with us discussing their calls, game management, mechanics, etc. However, we should keep it as impersonal as possible, and some of the comments in this thread carrying the implication of umpires being assigned above their heads are inappropriate for an officials board. Let's leave that kind of stuff to eteamz. We need to give them the respect they have all earned.

I agree with Dakota. The names, etc are all out there for anyone to get a hold of. We are simply using names so that we all know who we are talking about; saying "game two PU" is vague and does not offer us anything to go by.

If the mud slinging comments are directed at my Beasely story, then so be it. However, that is a 100% true story and I feel I can share that story if I feel it is right to do.

Thanks

Whether or not it was true, it was inappropriate because...

1) It added nothing to the discussion of calls, game management, or mechanics of the WCWS, and

2) Was (apparently) only intended as a personally discrediting story.

Obviously, I, for one, do NOT believe it was right to post that story.

I have just read the posts concerning the tournament and the comments about the crew.
I don't have any problem with what was said about Diane, having known her for years and having heard her say the same thing as others have heard.

This is Diane, she is a good umpire but is well known for her "unique" personality and habits.
The statement about her is factual and well known as her attitude. I personally have heard her say the same thing and even extend it to 16U.
She isn't afraid to say it or have it said about her.

I know plenty of people who still work the SEC and those who don't. It doesn't matter at all.

People who live in glass houses like us are going to get talked about be it good or bad. Recounting the "strange" things we have done or experienced is the norm.
I have had stories told about me that are factual and those that border on extreme fantasy. I still live and breathe without too many problems.
As a fraternity of specialists, we are going to talk amongst ourselves about those we know and have worked with.

Irish, SteveM, SCump VAUMP and others here know me personally and we have talked about those we have worked with or "WONT" work with.

It happens, move on!

I have worked with all of Diane's crew at one time or another in the past and they are good people. I have also seen all of them screw up at one time or anoither, just like I have.

I have called others arrogant and been called arrogant but those who hadn't worked at the levels I have, OK so be it.

There is only one umpire that works the SEC that I truly think is above reproach. I won't name him but I admire him and respect him above probably any other umpire that I have met in 28 years. If you knew him, you would know that he works his assignments that he gets without giving the UIC any flack but because he is not a self promoter, he hasn't gotten to work the CWS and probably never will.

Don't toss too much flack because someone voiced their opinion. After all I have heard things about almost all of the regurlars on this board as I am sure that have heard things about me.

Relax, breathe and move on.

I don't know any of the principals involed here, but there is a huge difference between swapping yarns in the umpire tent and posting names attached to those yarns on a public internet discussion board.

Not really,
The tent is an open foum just as this is, I have yet to work a tournament anywhere where there wasn't a notable "guest" contingtent. Some people I knew and some I didn't.

I actually laughed when I read the orignal comment about Diane, because I can hear her now, "that's right!"

I had a lot of fun with her at one tournament, a national championship no less, where she did her I am an SEC umpire thing and the UIC said, "This isn't the SEC and you are no better than (pointed to another umpire who had only ever worked one National and no college before), if you want to work this tournament then wear our uniform. We had a great time and Diane worked the championship game with the rest of the 4 ump crew.

Me thinks you doth protest too much.

I am making a general point. You are saying "It's OK -it's Diane. She won't mind."

We're not even in the same book, let alone on the same page.

You are correct, we are definately not in the same book.

This is kinda like booger picking, if you go looking for trouble, it will find you.

ScottK, was it an NSA tournament you worked with her?

My next point is going to be that the reason I shared this story isnt so that people stop and go "oh what a jerk for saying that about her." it is because everyone sees these games and these calls and continues to post about them (which is great). But some people continue to say "well, these guys are on ESPN and they are great umpires and great people...blah blah blah."

Is what she told that UIC a great statement? NO is it a statement that someone trying to help maybe less experienced umpires? NO

You can draw your conclusions about her umpiring ability, I have my own already made. You can also draw your own conclusions about what type of umpire makes that comment that she/he is above a certain level.

Thanks for your time and ScottK, please feel free to PM me if you dont want to answer my question in public

I do not know any of the principals in this either, but apparently this particular umpire has no problem in making her opinions known that she is above the game and enjoys flaunting her elitist attitude.

This not mud-slinging in my book. It is merely helping her spread her own chosen words. The fact that her attititude is outrageous is what seems most bothersome. Even to the extent that just echoing her own words, made it sound like mud-slinging.

Hope all is well with you. Glad to read your posts again.

I was out of line with some of the comments I made about a few calls that were made in that very close game between NW and Bama. It appeared those calls were going to take a win away from NW and give it to Alabama so I vented some on this forum. Not that I am a fan of NW, (I'm not) but I just didn't want any team to lose on what I believed was via human error on the part of an umpire. All Umpires make mistakes and that's part of the game. Through it I learned it's better not to voice any negatives against a proven umpire. As one has already said these guys and ladies do a great job overall and if I have nothing good to say then it's best to say nothing. I'm careful not to criticize a fellow blue at a game, and I don't like it when I hear fans, coaches, or players bad mouth umpires. I started way to late in life to ever even hope to attain a fraction of the ability of any of the officials that are chosen to call the softball world series games.

Take care of yourself Scott... Hope you are doing better! Al

OK, these people are on freakin' national TV! It's ok for the commentators to blast them and talk about their inconsistancies but not those of us in the "brotherhood"? Hogwash! Our local HS board met this past Sunday and we discussed some of the faux pax's there too - was that wrong? We don't discuss errors to make them look bad as much as trying to learn ourselves. I love discussing the minutia of umpiring. Their names are a matter of public record - so be it! I acutally find it comforting to see someone say, "Hey, I know her and she's really a great umpire." It shows me that I'm not the only human doing this game.

I'll tell you what - IF I would ever make it that far, you have my express permission to rip me on this forum and use my name . . . of course that's a BIG "IF".:)

Which was, of course, why you posted it, IMO.

AFAIK, there is no requirment that says for an umpire's skill and quality to be such that she receives the assignment to the WCWS that she also be an ambassador of good will for 10U ASA.

The comment about her "attitude" toward JO ball, especially younger JO ball, means I would not want to work a 12U tournament with her, but it says absolutely nothing about her calls in the WCWS. It is merely an attempt to disparage her reputation. Both you and orangeump said as much in your followup comments. Whether or not she would wear such an attempt as a badge of honor is beside the more general point.

And, whether or not that is "fair game" for this board?... certainly that kind of stuff is common on the baseball board. But, at least be honest enough with yourselves to admit why you did it.

repeating now
 

to repeat what I have said; everyone is quick to say "oh there are ten replays" or "oh come on, these are the best umpires in all the land!"

well, I am saying; oh come on, listen to her attitude, do you really care anymore if she boots ten calls in a row?

I for one couldnt care less if she blows a big call at a big moment. I dont know if she is working the finals (who is?) but if she misses a bunch of big calls, so be it. She doesnt deserve everyone's respect for simply working a WCWS, she is a scummy person who thinks she is above not only working that level of play, but apparently working with umpires who can learn from her and vice versa at that level of play.

Thanks!

She is proof of that.

I am confused. You admit that you would not want to work with her because of her outrageous and outspoken opinions, but don't include yourself in the list of those who make disparaging and damaging comments to her reputation?

I would have to honestly say that my original post about her calls had to do with the fact that I do not know her, and did not know the rules of this board.

No, I didn't write that. I wrote that the comment made about her (if true). I made no comment one way or the other about her as a person, since I know nothing about that.

I've worked lower level tournaments before with umpires who did not want to be there. It makes for a long day at the ball park.

Is she such a person? Beats me.

Does the question have anything to do with her calling of the WCWS? No.

Why was it brought up? Jealousy? That would be my guess. Cheap shot artists abound on internet boards.

Did it affect my opinion? Sure it did... my opinion of the person who posted it.

Just goes to show how easily it is to misinterpret the written word.


Another case of easily written words that are easily misinterpreted.

One might think that you have just impuned the integrity and tarnished reputation of one or more people on this board, including me.

One might think that your last words are more damaging and more mean-spirited than what has been written in this and many other threads on this board.

One might think that there is a double standard where the "anointed few" have a permanent Get Out Of Jail card. The same sins are percieved differently based on who commits them.

If a rookie were to have made the mechanical mistakes or was quoted, I find it hard to believe that it would be just swept under the carpet. Think what you may about the purity of this board. My perception is that the majority of the posts on this board are critical of imperfections in the spirit of learning from other people's mistakes.

The only real sin is to criticize those who are above reproach. This includes on the field as well as on the message boards.

The effect is that the board is now clearly polarized. I have enough personal demons to deal with. I do not have the capacity to post messages under a black cloud.

You are correct. I should not have written that. I apologize.