TWP - 2 on same base (ASA)

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

This one, we have to wait forever;

So, you wait.... R1 still at third.... pitcher still with the ball in the circle not making a play... and FINALLY, R1 realizes and leaves 3rd base to run home.

Is it a dead ball with R1 declared out on the LBR?

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

So, you wait.... R1 still at third.... pitcher still with the ball in the circle not making a play... and FINALLY, R1 realizes and leaves 3rd base to run home.

Is it a dead ball with R1 declared out on the LBR?

I wouldn't think that LBR applies since she is forced to go home

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

So, you wait.... R1 still at third.... pitcher still with the ball in the circle not making a play... and FINALLY, R1 realizes and leaves 3rd base to run home.

Is it a dead ball with R1 declared out on the LBR?

No. The action caused by a batted ball has yet to be resolved.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No. The action caused by a batted ball has yet to be resolved.

Mike, that seems to conflict with the verbiage in the LBR. “..will be in effect when the ball is live for all runners , the BR has touched 1B and F1 has possession…in the circle”.

It does not say “until all runners have reached the base to which forced or have been put out”.

So if the LBR is in effect, and R1 is on a base (the base she is being forced to vacate) when F1 receives the ball in the circle then R1 cannot per 8-7-T-2 leave that base.

I understand the logic that since the runner never ran, the play is not over. But the rules seem to have this runner trapped. The way the words read, it sounds like R1 must now wait for the defense to begin making a play on her before she tries to advance to avoid the LBR.

Is the interpretation basically that R1 is not “on a base” if she is standing on a base she is forced to vacate? But then if that is true you could call her out for standing on the base she needs to vacate on an LBR violation as soon as the ball is in the circle and the runner is not running.

In the other “2 runners on one base” play with two runners on 2B, where there was no force and F1 has the ball in the circle then the trail runner decides to run back to 1B we had determined that would be an LBR out. Why are these two different under the LBR?

[AtlUmpSteve]

The interpretation, as I understand it, Ernie, is that F1 is not yet a pitcher as long as runners are required to advance on the batted ball; F1 has the same status as any other defensive player in this case, one who is making a play (sooner or later, in this case).

Using that interpretation, the LBR cannot yet be in affect in this case. In the other play, no runner is required to advance.

Similarly, when F1 fields a batted ball, she is not immediately a pitcher; there is a presumption that runners that must advance, may, and runners that must return, may.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Remember the subject line here, folks, TWP.

Ernie, what happens when the B becomes a BR and bases are loaded? Each runner is FORCED to advance (1-FORCE OUT). To retire a runner forced, the base to which they are forced is touched by a player in possession of the ball or that runner is tagged with the ball or glove containing the ball. (8.7.C)

The scenario is that of a batted ball forcing all runners to advance to the next base. The umpire cannot call time because that would facilitate R1 advancing to the plate and deny the defense the opportunity to retire that runner. You cannot allow the pitcher to pitch with four runners on three bases.

Steve has supplied the only remedy available in this scenario.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Remember the subject line here, folks, TWP.

TWP

This Weird Play?
Typical Wednesday Problem?
This Will Perplex?

Sorry I have never heard the acronym TWP used in softball.

[Dakota]

"Third World Play" = a play very unlikely to happen, but which tests the boundaries of the rules in some way.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The scenario is that of a batted ball forcing all runners to advance to the next base. The umpire cannot call time because that would facilitate R1 advancing to the plate and deny the defense the opportunity to retire that runner. You cannot allow the pitcher to pitch with four runners on three bases.

I guess this is a useless conversation becuase I don't see either of these situations happening (two people on one base while the defense does nothing about it).

But we have two answers if there are two runners on base and the defense does not care to play on them and instead holds the ball in the circle. Assume bases loaded no out and a base hit:

Play 1 - BR ends up on 1B, R3 and R2 both on 3B, and R1 scored. All runners have advanced to or past the base they were forced to. If the ball is being held in the circle and R2 finally dcecided to go back to 2B we ring up an LBR out.

Play 2- BR ends up on 1B, R3 on 2B. R1 scores. R2 never moves from 2B even though forced. The ball is being held in the circle and R2 and R3 are both on the base. Finally R2 decided to go to 3B. Becuase she is forced we ignore the LBR and allow play to continue.

Basically I guess there is just another requirement to the LBR being in effect that is not stated in the rules. The BR must reach 1B and all runners must reach the base to which they were forced. But does this assumed requirement only apply to that runner who is forced? The LBR should be either on or off not on for some runners and off for others, right?

So if we are going to get into fantasticly strange plays that will only happen in low level ball.... What if two Rs end up on 1B with another on 3B. The ball is held in the circle. R1 the runner in 1B who should have went to 2B finally does run. We do nothing becuase this runner is forced so no LBR. Now the runner on 3B seeing her teammate running, decides this is a fine idea and starts running also. Still no play from F1. Still no LBR out???

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

... snip ... What if two Rs end up on 1B with another on 3B. The ball is held in the circle. R1 the runner in 1B who should have went to 2B finally does run. We do nothing becuase this runner is forced so no LBR. Now the runner on 3B seeing her teammate running, decides this is a fine idea and starts running also. Still no play from F1. Still no LBR out???

R1 (3rd base) is out on LBR.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by UmpireErnie

... snip ...
Basically I guess there is just another requirement to the LBR being in effect that is not stated in the rules. The BR must reach 1B and all runners must reach the base to which they were forced. But does this assumed requirement only apply to that runner who is forced? The LBR should be either on or off not on for some runners and off for others, right?
...snip...

Which rule sets say "all runners must reach the base to which they were forced" If that is the rule, then those play responses are correct.