Was it a strike?
 

My daughter just moved up to U12 softball this year and our first game ended in a forfeit because of the behavior of the other coach. Unfortunately, we have High School students officiating our games not professional umpires. The question I have is are there times when a pitched ball bounces on home plate is called a strike? This seemed to be the main point of disagreement between the coach and the umpire. Thank you for helping out a novice.

If the batter swings at it.

The batter did not swing. The umpire and several HS softball players insist that there are times when a pitched ball can hit home plate and be called a strike. I would like to know what those circumstances are.

If it passes through the Twilight Zone before reaching the plate.

The umpire and several HS softball players are WRONG!

As was stated earlier, the batter would have to swing at the pitch.

Speaking ASA fastpitch, a pitched ball which touches the ground before reaching home plate or touches home plate, and the batter does not swing, is by rule, a BALL.

Since you mentioned you had high school students as umpires, this is also true for high school softball.

If the pitched ball hits the plate, and is not swung at, it is a BALL, regardless of whether it went through the strike zone or not.

The ASA Rule is 7-5-A. The NHFS (high school) rule is 7-2-2-EFFECT.

ASA 7-5-A (Fast Pitch) lists 3 separate and distinct circumstances. A legally pitched ball which does not enter the strike zone, which touches the ground before reaching home plate, or which touches home plate and the batter does not swing. By this definition a pitched ball that lands on home plate has not passed through the strike zone.

ASA 1 - Definitions - Strike Zone. When a batter assumes a natural batting stance adjacent to home plate. The NFHS definition does not have the word ‘adjacent’ but I think it should be understood as such. By either definition, no matter how close together a batter’s legs may be, it is physically impossible for a pitched ball (even an arc pitch) to touch the plate and have gone over the top of both of the batter’s knees.

Was it a strike?
 

CLB...why do you say both knees? I have it as a strike if it clears one knee when passing over the plate...what happens after that, with the caveat that it must also clear the plate, is incidental. It's in the zone. Just a question.

Duane

I don't say both knees. ASA and NFHS say both knees in their definitions of the strike zone. Perhaps you are thinking of the slow pitch strike zone where it only has to pass over the front knee but then if it hits the plate it is a dead ball and a ball.

Was it a strike?
 

No, I'm pretty sure that the definition of a strike does not require that it be above both knees in fast pitch. The pitch only needs to break the plane of the front edge of the plate within the bounds of the strike zone and then it can drop, curve, rise, do whatever even if it carrys the ball outside the strike zone it is still going to be a strike. JMHO.

Duane

Where do you see "the front edge of the plate" in a definition or rule?

If you are a fast pitch umpire then good luck selling this.

If you are a fast pitch pitcher or catcher then good luck getting it called.

Technically, it doesn't have to break the front plane, but usually, it does. The requirement is that any part of the ball passes through the zone, which is defined as the space over the plate and between the forward armpit and the knees. This is a cubical space, which a part of the ball must pass through. It could theoretically enter from any of 5 sides (not the back plane), and exit through any of the other sides. It does not need to stay above both knees.

I wish someone could post a diagram of this as viewed from the side. I can almost visualize a ball hitting the back edge of the plate that may have passed through the front of the strike zone. But, it seems like the pitched ball would have a ridiculously high arc, or be a really good drop ball....any mathematicians on this board?

CLBuffalo,

Speaking of slow pitch... (must have 6 to 10 foot arch) Here in our town we have men's slow pitch tournament games on weekends where the umpires call strikes only if the ball touches the plate or the plate extention. The umpires don't even stand directly behind the catcher, but off to the side to see if the ball bounces off the plate or extention for the strike. It seems this strike zone must not be too common from what I observed from some of the complaints coming from the dugouts... "Hey blue the ball hit the #&^@#% plate! I spoke with one of the umpires and asked if he had a pre-game talk with the coaches about this strike zone and he said yes he did. I guess the coaches didn't make it clear to some on their players. They have another rule that also makes the job of umpiring easier. Each team is allowed only 1 over the fence home run, (300 feet). If a second home run comes the inning is over, even if they had no outs, plus the other team gets 2 runs. If a 3rd home run comes the inning is over , and the other team gets 3 runs...etc. etc. Sure changes the swing of the power hitters! It probably shortens the game too. ...Fun at the ole' ball park! ...Al

Now that is an interesting strike zone and I've never seen or heard it before. I do see that it would be very easy to call. How long has this been in effect? As for the home runs, I've done slow pitch tournaments (NSA) where that was the same penalty for too many home runs.

Don't know what happened to my reply Chester...but I'll try again.

I don't know how long this has been the strike zone, but when I think about it I don't recall hearing anyone complain about it except a few from the dugouts. No fan or actual batter at the plate complained. And the batters were not having to swing at low pitches. Very few walks and plenty of hard hit liners.

I asked the one umpire what one thing he learned over the years that he credits for improving his work the most. He said "if you work with a partner make sure you have good communications. Think ahead and remind each other of certain situations such as in field fly etc"... I have to hurry along....Later, ..Al

I think I may start a thread and ask the guys and ladies on this board what helped their game the most as well. ...

Speaking ASA

Anyone ever NOT call a strike because the ball was at the front knee, but not the back? If you have, you need to get a job at NASA calibrating the Hubble telescope.

SP is a 6-12 foot arc.

IMO, mat ball is a joke. Umpires who work it and stand to the side are not too smart. You're going to see a lot more foul balls to the outside than you will ever see, or duck, in the slot.

Hey Mike,

There were four fields having games most of the day, and of all the umpires I watched only one stood behind the plate. I think because the catchers all stood up directly behind the plate and plate extension "mat". One umpire got hit in the leg with a thrown bat from a right handed batter. He always stood to the left side of both right handed and left handed batters. The way he was limping around in pain it was obvious he was not wearing any shin guards under his pants. I don't know what the rule is for throwing a bat but the umpire didn't say or do anything. Anyway I enjoyed the games. ...One big powerful looking man hit the rooftop of a grounds crew building that stood at least 60 feet past the 300 foot fence. At that time one of the ground crew employees told me he parks on the other side of that same building and he his car got hit by one monster shot. One of the umpires told me they use a pretty lively ball .44 hardness, and some very good bats.

I asked one blue if they need more umpires and what they pay. He told me he is paid $17.00 per game if with a partner, and $30 if by himself. I get $25 for T-Ball and coach-pitch, ...with or without a partner. Take care, ..Al

The original post was about fast pitch, not slow pitch. If you mean fast pitch then guilty. I would never call a strike that only passed over the front knee.

If you mean slow pitch then I do call it provided the pitch didn't hit the plate.

And my contention is that you cannot tell the difference from any umpire stance.

In fast pitch I'm watching for the ball to go over the back knee. I can't imagine a ball going under the front knee and then over the back knee. Are you saying that in fast pitch it only has to go over the front knee and not hit the plate for it to be a strike or that the umpire only has to see it go over the front knee?

I have been reading your posts on this and other forums since 1988. I respect your opinions and expertise. I am really trying to understand what you are saying.

Al,

The mat as a strike zone is unfair to both batter and pitcher. It is also a waste of money and officiating resources. Then again, you live in an area where they use umpires for t-ball and coach pitch, so obviously, your association is not hurting for umpires. Of that, I am envious.

FP

All I'm saying is that I don't believe ANY umpire from any accepted/standard plate stance can tell if the ball actually went over one knee, but not the other regardless of whether it was the front or back knee.

OK - got it and I agree. That is why I use the back knee.

Then you are not calling by the NFHS strike zone, unless the back knee is at the front of the plate. The only requirement is that any part of the ball pass through the strike zone, which is above the knees, which should be at the same level. What do you do if the batter is in the back of the batter's box, three feet behind the plate?

I don't use a moving strike zone based on where the batter is in the box. I use the natural stance when the batter is adjacent to the plate.

I don't even look at their knees after they've entered the box. The rule doesn't say the ball must go over a particular knee (or both) - it says it must enter the zone above the plate at that height. I don't care how far up or back they stand, the zone is over the plate (front OR back).

And at younger levels, a ball can DEFINITELY be at that height at the front of the plate, and not be there at the back of the plate - and it's still a strike. You can even have what WOULD HAVE been a strike (i.e. passed through the strike zone) end up hitting the plate (and being a ball because of it). If their knees were lined up at the front and back of the plate, then I certainly can see where ANYone (not just trained umpires in certain stances) could see that it was above the front knee and not above the back.

Hey Mike,

As I watched several games I didn't see very many walks or called strike-outs.
It seemed both pitcher and batter were happy with this mat strike zone. I know the umpires were happy because they didn't get any noise from the fans or batters that the ball was high, low, outside, or inside. Can't miss the ball bouncing off the plate. If there was no swing & miss etc. and the ball dropped on the plate; or the extension, it was a strike, if not it was a ball. (and very hittable as long as the ball was not flat, in which case it was called a ball even if it hit the plate.)
Now you have me wanting to ask the pitcher if he thinks this is unfair from a pitchers point of view. It seems if one has a disadvantage it may be the pitcher, but like I said they all seemed happy. Maybe cause they know if they get the ball where they are aiming it will be a sure strike if the batter don't swing at it. ...I'm going to try to get to the park to watch more games over the next few Saturday's to get some feed back from a pitcher or two. I'm very nosy as you can probably tell. ...Al

Al,

Unfair to batter - There is no requirement to hit the strike zone, which means the 5'2" batter has the same "zone" as the 6'6" batter. If you are the latter, you probably don't care. However, if you are the previous, you might have a problem. A pitch can hit the front of the plate, never coming even close to the batter's front knee and it's a strike.

Unfair to the pitcher - A legal 7' pitch can clear the mat even though it is a perfectly good pitch in a legal strike zone and be ruled a ball because it missed the mat. A pitcher is more of a target as s/he must throw the ball down the middle. No curves, no catching the corners, etc.

Man, you need to see a good drop ball pitcher, or one with a low rise.

Any part of the ball touching any part of the strike zone at any part of the plate. A good drop can easily hit the front of the plate at the top of the knee then break down. A good low rise can be just below the zone at the front of the plate, and hit the level of the top of the knee by the back of the plate. Both are strikes that need to be called, without regard to either knee being in front, behind, or even with the plate.

Probably the best thing about this forum is if enough seasoned and expert people tell you that what you are doing is wrong, then it probably is wrong, no matter how long you have been doing it. I don't know where the idea that the pitch has to cross both knees came from but I've been calling that for 23 years and I now see that I am wrong. Why this has never been picked up before in the clinics I've attended or by other umpires I've worked with or in games where I've been evaluated and critiqued I don't know. The fun part now is going to be in retraining myself.

Thanks to all who kept calling this to my attention, even when I was adamant that I was right. Thank you also for not calling me or saying in the forum what you might have been thinking to yourselves about my attitude. I can be stubborn but eventually it does get through.

I hope the others who post here will listen intently to what is said and go through it thoroughly in their minds before being quick to say they are right and others are wrong. I will be doing this in the future.

Thanks Mike,

Good points! The more I think about what you said the more I think this mat ball takes too much away from the game...both batters and pitchers as you pointed out. ...

Tonight if the field has dried out, and no more rain comes (looks like it might) I will be umpiring for the same two teams that played last Monday where I ejected the head coach of the Bears. Because of all the rainouts this past week it will be his first game since the ejection so I hope I don't have any trouble with him. I wonder if he plans to come over to offer an apology, as he told the administrator he would do if I let him coach the game after the ejection? I wonder if I should just let it go if he doesn't and let him coach anyway? Or would it be better for me not to let it go and remind him that without an apology he must leave the field? ...Anyone want to comment? Must do so within a few hours. Thanks, ... Al

I don't carry over behavior issues from one game to the next.

Suspensions after an ejection are a league issue, not an umpiring issue. (I know from earlier comments you were put in this position, but, still...)

With these two principles as a guide, I would ignore the whole thing. Let tonight's game stand on its own. In fact, if the coach does come over to apologize, I might be tempted to say something like, "Thanks, coach. But tonight is a new game; clean slate. Let's just play ball."

PS: If he does NOT apologize, I would still play the game, not bring it up at all, but then report to the league admin that the coach did not apologize. Let them deal with the ramifications, if any.

Al - if he comes to apologize, the best thing you can do is say something like - "Coach, I umpire so many games that I don't even remember the incident you are referring to. I appreciate the apology, but I assure you it's water under the bridge."

You just need to approach this game as though nothing had ever happened. Forget that last week ever existed. Tabula rasa. Good luck.

Thanks Dakota,

Sounds right to me! But if that's the way it works out I don't think I'll say a word to the administrator unless he asks.

And thanks to Mcrowder as well...Glad I asked you guys! ... I'll let you know what happens. ...Take care, ..Al

Thanks Skahtboi,

I will take all of the advice offered and think this approach may even improve the relationship with this coach. Thank you sir, ...Al

Why lie, even if it didn't undermine your credibility? Accept the apology in a polite manner and say nothing else.

Hey Cecil,

Well, as the teams were warming up I told the coaches "a couple more warm up minutes then bring your girls in it's almost time to get started. Then about a minute later coach 'Richard' came over to me with his hand out and said "I got a little carried away last week and I was wrong" He started to say more when I said "Hey Rich, it's almost time to play ball, last week is over, gone and forgotten...Then he said "thanks Al" while tightly squeezing my hand. I could tell he really appreciated the way I handled this somewhat difficult situation. Anyway, the game went very well but his team got swamped 21 to 2...Those Twisters are really good, and fun to watch. But I understand how the other teams feel about getting beaten badly every time they play the Twisters. They placed 3rd a couple weeks ago in an 8 team tournament series against some of the best teams in the state. One girl who was telling me about the games said an Umpire made them lose one of the games...with a terrible call! :) Nothin like fun at the ole' ball park! ...Later, ...Al

This is the original poster. I thank you all for your patience in dealing with a novice like myself. I realize I am only a parent and not a professional as all of you but I like to know and understand the rules of the sports my kids are involved in. I have read your responses to the best of my ability. Now if someone can put this into layman's terms, can a pitched ball be considered a strike when the batter does not swing and the ball hits the plate? Remember these are 5th -7th grade girls (not travel) with a pitcher (my daughter) who is 10 years old and just starting to windmill pitch (which at times can mean a high arc). The batter also may or may not be standing completely adjacent to the plate (either more forward or back).

Again, to all the experts thank you for your time.

Reading your reply you legally could be calling strikes at the players ankles. You'd also be leading the league in ejections :o

Speaking ASA.
No. If the pitched ball not swung at hits the plate, it is by definition a ball. Arc or no arc, doesn't matter. Position of the batter, doesn't matter. Age of the players, doesn't matter.

To put it as simply as I can, no.

Reading your reply you legally could be calling strikes at the players ankles. You'd also be leading the league in ejections LIIRISHMAN

You're probably correct about calling some strikes at the ankles. I've seen some pitchers who could do that and also I have hit against some in my much younger years...Ejections, I don't think so...What was that pregame discussion that we had about balls and strikes, sir/madam(whichever the case might be)?:eek:

LIIR - if the ball is coming in at a significant arc or has drop on it, and the batters are in the very back of the box, heck yeah you could legally be calling strikes at the players' ankles. It's not my job to move them up. If it takes ejections to get a coach who bothers to move the batters up, fine.

Are you saying you would not? Do you move your strikezone based on how far up or back the batter stands, or do you just screw the drop-ball pitcher? Which rule are you willfully ignoring here? Just curious.

The answer to "can a pitched ball be considered a strike when the batter does not swing and the ball hits the plate?" is no. The first answer above, when you asked if it ever could be a strike was "if the batter swings". Sorry that didn't cover the full answer and I commend you for following up and getting a straight answer along with all the theory, technicalities and tangents.

Which we are quite good at elaborating on in long and tangled rabbit trails! :rolleyes:

Have we now answered your question clearly?

My answer was based on FP scenario. Again I would say calling a strike below the knee is wrong and not fair to the player. Also at no time should a strike be called when it hits the plate.

The strike zone is over the plate, no matter where the batter stands. The armpits and knees define the height over the plate, and that is the strike zone. If the batter is in the back of the box and the pitch crosses the plate at an altitude higher than the batter's knees, it's a strike no matter how far it drops before it passes the batter. If the batter is in the front of the box and the pitch crosses the plate at an altitude lower than the batter's armpit, it's a strike no matter what part of the batter's body it passes in front of the plate or how far it drops before the plate. Not saying this is always easy to judge, but that is the rule and that is what we must try to call.

BTW, there were some comments a while back about not calling strikes "at the letters". I've checked every uniform for about 10 days and the letters are all below the armpits.

Maybe (giving you the benefit of the doubt) you are missing the variable of where the batter is standing.

The strike zone remains next to the plate. The batter's ankles remain with the batter.

Cute! :rolleyes:

But, what about letters on the helmet? :D

If the pitch passes where the letters say "Becca", it's a ball unless it's the seventh, home team leading big and it's raining. :D

Thank you everyone. I am one of those parents who likes to know the rules and what is correct so I can reinforce these with my kids. So many parents think they know it all and pass along misinformation. This is a problem as the kids get older because more of the rules are enforced and the kids think they are right.

Thanks again. I certainly received more information than I bargained for!:) Seemed like you all enjoy a great debate.;)

Glad to have you on the forum. Hope to hear from you again. :)

Ya, that mat ball. Crazy local rules. Ever call arena ball? Anything hit, as long as it stays within the fences is a live ball. Regular SP ASA play requires a 6-12 foot arch, passing over any part of the plate between the batters front knee and back shoulder as if the batter is standing even with the plate. The ball cannot touch the plate (Ball is called).