ASA - Batting out of Order
 

I think I'm going out of my mind!

I just had a discussion with a local softball umpire friend of mine regarding the ASA batting-out-of-order rule.

I'll just throw this VERY simple scenario out there and see what you guys think.

Situation: Bases empty, nobody out. Katie is scheduled to bat but an improper batter, Lizzy, comes to the plate. Lizzy grounds out.

Despite the fact that Lizzy made an out, the defense immediately appeals that she batted out of order. They want the PROPER batter, Katie, called out for failing to bat in the proper order -and- they want to keep the out made by the improper batter, Lizzy. Two outs!

Ruling?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Correct
 

2 Outs. Rule 7.2.D.2 and effect. If appealed before the next pitch, the batter who should have batted would be called out and any out(s) incurred during the incorrect batter's at bat will stand. All advancement of runners and runs will be nullified.

Yep, just forty more to go!

David said:

<b>I think I'm going out of my mind!</b> :o

See, you are......By rule two outs.

This is really easy. It amazes me that anyone who actually works as an umpire and bothers to learn by coming here would have any question AT ALL about BOO. Even the nasty confusing ones are easy. I can understand newbies and coaches coming here with questions on BOO... but any umpire that cares should have this down by now.

Had this happen last night.

Now........when the team that BOO comes back in to bat, who steps in the batter's box?

The next batter due up. Who that is depends on what happened, when the improper batter was "caught", etc.

Depends
 

If the incorrect batter is put out and tha batter who was skipped is declared out, not the third out of the inning, the next batter would be the one following the incorrect batter. If the incorrect batter is put out and the skipped batter is declared out for the third out, the batter following the skipped batter would leadoff the next inning, which could be the incorrect batter from the previous inning.

37. Why do you always let the visitors win?:D ?!

Looking for a short run rule game.

Changing the subject a little, the NFHS only takes one out in this situation. 7-1-1, Penalty 2 (Casebook 7.1.2 Situation H): ... The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout.

I didn't want any of us 'Fed' umpires to rule incorrectly on this.

MN,
That is correct. Fed is far more lenient, in this case than ASA.
In ASA, I can get 3 outs on 2 pitches. I can't do that in Fed.
That's OK - Fed is far stricter in some other areas.

It amazes me that anyone who actually works as an umpire and bothers to learn by coming here would have any question AT ALL about BOO.

Don't be too hard on them, mcrowder. Remember that BOO is treated differently in ASA, Fed, and NCAA. Also, the three codes differ in what advances are permitted by runners during the improper batter's at bat. ASA, for example, nullifies any advance made on the last pitch to the improper batter. NCAA nullifies only advances that result from a ball batted by the improper batter, or from the improper batter's advance to 1B.

[QUOTE=Steve M]MN,
That is correct. Fed is far more lenient, in this case than ASA.
In ASA, I can get 3 outs on 2 pitches. I can't do that in Fed.
[QUOTE]

Been there done that. The first week of the season the rule was in place I had that exact situation.

1st Pitch - B1 singles to right.
2nd Pitch - B4 hits into double play
Before the 3rd Pitch - Defense protest B2 failing to bat.

I have absolutely no problem with keeping the outs. It is not like the umpire manufactured them, the offense did. I do not understand why the Fed is letting the team who screwed up off the hook. Too much "little ball" mentality still hanging around, me thinkith!

Oh, that's right, it's the Fed. :)

If you can't recognize that one group of rulemakers can have a different philosophy or see the learning process differently than a primarily competition organization; there is no need to bring up another game in a derogatory manner. :rolleyes:

Why not? :cool:

Actually, in ASA you can get 3 outs on 1 pitch!

Not without it being one pitch and a play.

Steve M's was a play, too (or otherwise the improper batter would not be out). Or am I missing what you are saying?

First pitch of the inning. 3 outs.

ITB? ?

B1 is suppose to bat. B2 bats and grounds out, appeal on BOO, next batter steps in box with doctored, non-approved or altered bat; short-handed player due up; switching batter boxes infront of the catcher while the pitcher is in the pitching position. 3 outs 1 pitch. Depending on order, 3 outs no pitch.

What I'm thinking of is exactly one batter, no equipment violations, team is not playing shorthanded.

Ok, get technical. :D

ITB sitch, runner on 2nd. Improper batter comes to the plate, lines to F4 who steps on 2nd for the 2nd out. Proper appeal of BOO - 1 pitch, 3 outs.

YUP! :D (Sorry, I missed your "ITB" answer earlier.)

I can't think of a realistic situation in ASA in which it is not to the defense's advantage to appeal a BOO situation. Any outs made always stand, you always get the out for the batter who failed to bat in the proper order, and no runners can advance on the pitch that completes the improper batter's at bat.

OK. If, with none out in the 6th inning, the 6th batter bats instead of the number 2 batter and hits into a double play, and if numbers 3, 4, and 5 are great hitters and numbers 7, 8, 9, and 10 are automatic outs, then the defense might keep quiet about the BOO. Same if the improper batter hits into a triple play—the defense might choose which batter it wants to lead off the next inning.

But in NCAA, which follows OBR closely, it could well be to the defense's advantage not to appeal. Years ago the Pirates batted out of order the first 2 times through the lineup, and the Mets kept quiet until the third go-round, when the improper batter got a key hit.

I had this discussion with a friend of mine who probably calls more softball games in one season than I have in a lifetime.

I calls both FED and ASA.

I was always confident that *I* understood the rather radical differences between FED and ASA as far as batting-out-of-order is concerned.

Yet, my friend was absolutely adamant that they were the same.

I started doubting myself, differing to his experience. That's what prompted my question.

Thanks!

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

"Radical" differences???

If it is the difference between 2 out and 3 in the bottom of the 7th, it can be pretty radical! :D

Wouldn't you say the difference in the penalties between ASA and FED for batting our-of-order is "radical?"

R1 on 1st. Improper batter ground into a double play.

The defense makes a BOO claim. How many outs in FED? How many outs in ASA? That's radical if you ask me.

Along those lines ...

Unreported substitutes.

In FED, you get a warning. If you do it again, the player is removed from the game. Never any outs.

In ASA, there can be OUTS. No warnings. Outs! Outs! Outs!

Big difference if you ask me.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying that, in certain areas, there are RADICAL differences.

If you don't think the difference between a "warning" and an "out" for the same infraction is "radical", then you've obviously never coached a team. :)

I can assure you, a coach would consider the difference quite "radical."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Imho
 

In my very humble opinion, the difference between an umpire who does both and a good umpire who does both is that the good umpire understands the intent of the rule and the intent of the governing body.

As has been stated by several on here before, NFHS is less punitive. These differences are there for a reason. Some of us, as umpires, may not like it, but the game is not about us: it is about players, and in NFHS a participatory extracurricular activity that is an extension of school.

:D Which is why I prefer ASA! :D

But, back to the BOO, from an umpire's perspective, the difference is not a big deal - does an out made on the improper batter stand?

ASA - yes.
NFHS - no.

Not a biggie to remember or enforce.

First of all, there will not always BE an out made on the improper batter. And, secondly, the rest of the rule is identical in effect.

So, while the result of the rule difference may have a significant impact on the game (or it may not), the differences between the rules are not radical - just one item to remember.