DEFO/DP/Flex explanation
 

Greetings all --

The link I had to a pretty comprehensive article describing (in clearer more understandable language than the ASA rule book) the basics as well as finer points of the ASA/JO DEFO/DP substitution rules has become a dead end, and I can't even recall where the link took me.

Does anyone here have any direction to a good, basic primer on the hows and whys of ASA specifically girls fastpitch rules about these confusing substitution rules?

Thanks.

BGM

Try http://www.cactusumpires.com/pdf/lin...t-ASA-NFHS.ppt


If that doesn't help, ask a question about a specific portion.

Go here:

http://eteamz.active.com/softballump...stoDP-FLEX.htm

CecilOne has helped:)

The above link provides the following commentary. That information is in <font color=red>RED</font>.

I have inserted some comments in <font color=blue>BLUE</font>.

* * *

<font color=red>The keys to DP/FLEX are:

A. No player can bat in different batting order slots during a game.</font>

<font color=blue>Yet, the FLEX player is initially placed in the 10th spot but, if she should ever bat, she'll have to bat in the spot occupied by the DP. So, it is not <i>quite</i> true that their spot in the "batting order" never changes.</font>

<font color=red>B. Making it known before the game with the lineup and being sure all changes are reported to and tracked by the PU.</font>

<font color=blue>Yet, the penalties for a host of different scenarios are sometimes difficult to recognize or unravel.

Off hand, what would you rule if the offense should point out that the defense has had the DP playing defense throughout the inning while the FLEX has been on the bench?

Also, what if the DP is the leadoff batter and the FLEX batter comes up to bat? Is she an illegal substitute -or- is she batting out of order?

Would it make any difference if the DP was the 5th batter in the lineup when the FLEX improperly <i>bats</i> in the 10th spot?</font>

<font color=red>C. Knowing the provisions:

1. DP starts on offense, FLEX starts on defense</font>

<font color=blue>Not a requirement! The DP can go out on the field in the 1st inning and the FLEX can bat for the DP in her first at-bat.

True, these are substitutions but it is <i>not</i> true that they have to "start" in those positions.</font>

<font color=red>2. If not in starting “function”, not in game</font>

<font color=blue>True! See above.</font>

<font color=red>3. The DP and FLEX players can't be in the batting order at the same time</font>

<font color=blue>When the "batting order" is submitted, <i>both</i> the DP and FLEX must be included "at the same time."</font>

<font color=red>4. The FLEX can only bat in the DP slot

5. The DP can play defense at the same time as the FLEX – any position

6. In #5, the player not playing defense still bats

D. DP/Flex switches change the number of players in the game, but do not change the batting order.</font>

<font color=blue>When the FLEX bats she <i>moves</i> from the 10th spot to the DP's spot.</font>

<font color=red>E. DP/FLEX replacing each other are not “substitutions”, but when either leaves the game and returns, that is a reentry.</font>

<font color=blue>Completely incorrect! When the FLEX replaces the DP in the batting order it <i>must</i> be reported or it is an unreported substitution violation. The same applies when the DP plays defense for the FLEX. These <i>must</i> be reported!

Of course, the reentries must <i>also</i> be reported.

Lots of reporting is required!</font></font>

* * *

It's a convoluted rule. Substitution rules shouldn't be so complicated. The mere fact that you are looking for elaborating information and there are so many links attempting to explain it says it all. Even your acknowledgement that the ASA rulebook is inadequate should tell you something.

The DP/FLEX provision is a good idea gone awry, in my opinion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

You are going out of your way to make all this appear complicated, when it is not.

There is a difference between the starting lineup and the batting order. This is also true for the DH rule.

All moves by either the DP or FLEX must be reported to the umpire.

Violations involving the FLEX batting unreported are different from BOO, and you know it (but are pretending not to).

That just about covers all of your horrible complications, doesn't it.

Saw a situation the other day in an NCAA D-I game that confused the heck out of me.

In the lineup submitted to the press box (where I was) an hour before game time, the DP was actually listed in the 10th spot in the lineup. Apparently, at the plate meeting, they made some sort of change that I still don't understand. But in the end, the player listed in the 10th spot never batted and never played the field. It was as if they were batting a straight 9.

The sports information director from the school in question tried to explain it to me, but I still never quite understood it. Any idea how this works?

Sounds to me like the coach screwed up the lineup card. My guess is he intended the following:

Starting lineup with DP/FLEX, DP is his #1 pitcher and a good hitter. FLEX is his #2 pitcher, but not a good hitter.
Once the lineup becomes official, but before the game starts, bring the DP in on defense for FLEX. He will stay with this lineup unless he needs to bring in relief for his starting pitcher. Then FLEX re-enters the game to pitch, and DP goes to offense only.

The correction to reflect the above is probably what happened at the plate meeting.

The questions were mostly rhetorical to make a point. YOU may know the answers. It may all seem so simple to YOU. But I assure you that there are plenty of umpires and coaches who don't share your knowledge. You are in the vast minority.

I don't have to "pretend" that it's complicated. All the evidence suggests that it <b>IS</b>.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

It sounds to me like they simply got the terms screwed up. They put the DP where the FLEX was supposed to be and FLEX where the DP was supposed to be.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

A lot of college coaches and now HS coaches are making the DP/FLEX swap right after they submit
the lineup card. Don't know for sure why, but see more and more of it.

I disagree. "All" the evidence does not "suggest" it is complicated. As can be seen from another thread, people can make even the force out rules complicated.

There are a number of articles posted (check the handout page on Softball Umpires) that will help you (or others) understand the rule.

I agree the ASA rule book is not the best reference for understanding this rule, but once the various aspects click, it is remarkable how uncomplicated it really is.

The explanation I've heard is the one I posted above. They want their pitcher to bat. And they want a way to be able to relieve her later in the game if needed while keeping her in the batting order without having to move her to another defensive position. And, they don't want the relief pitcher to have to bat.

On my soapbox
 

1. What I am handed at the plate meeting is the starting lineup. It includes the batting order, numbers and positions, and (hopefully) lists available substitutes.

2. The DP/Flex is no more complicated than what an umpire makes it out to be. There are several good resources listed above for those who have a problem with it. Resources are good when it comes to helping folks understand a rule. Just because there are several resources available doesn't make a rule a bad rule.

3. Players 1-9 constitute the batting order. If there is a flex, players 1-10 constitute the starting lineup.

It's really pretty simple. They are two different entities. It's kind of like basepath and baseline. Two separate things. When you start mixing the two is when you get into trouble.

I agree, Tom. This rule has been in the college game since '84 and in ASA since '86. It is complicated because folks try to make it complicated - it took me 2 seasons of using it before I realized just how simple the rule is. And with all the simplicity of the rule - the DP is the single most potent position in the game of softball. I found the NCAA's chart to be most useful in looking at these positions.

Really, there isn't anything all that complicated about the Flex rule.

The reason is "seems" complicated is because of the coaches and umpires who overthink the process and try to find a loophole or advantage through the wording or the exclusion of such.

Because of that, the wording of the rule is not basic, but specific to the point of being extraneous. And, in spite of that, people still try to read into it and abuse what they believe to be a loophole or advantage.

There reason it "seems" complicated is because it is IS.

I would say the vast majority of coaches who use the DP/FLEX use it simply as a DH provision. Basically, Suzie is batting for Katie. That is almost the extent of their knowledge of the DP/FLEX.

I don't think there are a lot of coaches out there looking for loopholes. And those that ARE looking for "loopholes" are only doing so because the rule is so incredibly convoluted it is practically crying out to be used to one's advantage.

Another reason a coach might be tempted to look for a "loophole" is likely because he is betting that he can get away with it due to the anticipated lack of detailed knowledge on the part of the umpire. It's a pretty safe bet. The coach, who understands it well, talks circles around the hapless umpire who probably hasn't faced many complex issues regarding the DP/FLEX. So the coach gets what he wants mostly because he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

The bottom line is this: We waste far too much time talking about DP/FLEX when there are so many more important things to talk about. It's a substitution rule, for crissakes! The rules complexity makes it nothing more than a distraction.

Again - in my opinion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

And you would be wrong if you said that. The vast majority of the coaches I see - high school, college, and beyond understand the DP/Flex very well.


Again, you would be wrong. Coaches are looking to win. It is the coach's job to look for opportunities they can take advantage of - and that's what a loophole is.

As to coaches hoping to take advantage of officials who have not taken the time to learn what they need to know - yeah, they do that. We've got enough so-called umpires around who don't bother to open a book for years and see no reason to attend a clinic or learn anything different that what they learned x-number of years ago.

David, Your opinions in the game of baseball are pretty solid and, rightfully, respected. That's a different game in a number of ways. Your opinions about the game of softball are looked at through the eyes of a baseball umpire. So, rightfully so, they are not worthy of a whole lot of respect. That's a big reason why I say very little anymore on the baseball side.

I'll accept that as fair criticism.

I'll admit, I have much more experience (as an umpire) with baseball than I do with softball.

But I've been around fastpitch softball for many years. I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert. In fact, I <i>learn</i> more from discussions in this forum than almost anywhere else.

Consequently, I try to limit my softball commentary to those things that are either <i>opinions</i> or <i>experience</i>.

My criticism of the DP/FLEX rule is an opinion based on experience; partly my experience, but mostly observed experiences. Those who say that most of the people they know understand the rule very well are either 1) kidding themselves or 2) only calling very high level ball or 3) don't travel around enough to get a good sampling. Umpires who only call high level softball, over a period of time, become detached from the realities of the majority of the softball world.

I'm confident when I say that a <i>majority</i> of people who <i>should</i> know the rule well - don't.

It is a mistake to dismiss the message just because you don't like the messenger.

But, to be fair, you're right. I do not have the experience in softball that many of you do. That's why I try to limit myself to opinions and categorical facts. People are welcomed to disagree. And I fully expect some to disagree. I'm OK with that.

Heck, much of what I know about DP/FLEX comes from <i>you</i>! Which I've always found very informative.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

And I'll admit that other than a couple of 14&U games, high school ball is the youngest group that I see.

I think it's important that, as we move on & up, we remember those who have guided us - so we put something back in the pot for those who are coming next. So I spend some time helping with clinics, watching newer umpires work, even working some JV and 14&U games with umpires who want more. At these clinics - and we do a couple of lineup cards for games in each one - those who have spoken up seem to have an understanding on how it works. I know those who have worked those JV and 14&U games with me have a decent understanding - they work the plate and I usually ask the coaches to use a DP.

It's been my experience that those who put some time & effort into understanding the rule, come to the realization that this really is a simple rule to understand & apply. It's complex because we try to look at everything at once and add some third world applications - there's no reason to do that. And it's my prejudice - for lack of a better term - that I don't care too much about those who don't put the time & effort into it.

Showing my ignorance again
 

What is DEFO?

Believe you are correct Sir. It happened to me today in my college game. So I politely ask the coach during a conversation we were having between innings and that is what she told me.

OH BTW, Yes, I even talk to college coaches between innings...:D Most are human and some even have some good stories to relate.

DEFense Only. It was the descriptive and functional name of half of the DP/DEFO pair before NFHS decided to call the less flexible position in the pair the FLEX.

In case that little tortured sentence wasn't clear... DEFO is the old name for FLEX.

Heck, David, most of the couches around here in JO ball don't know how the basic substitution rules work. They only have to worry about batting 9 when they get to championship play. Most everything else is bat the roster.

Lack of putting in the effort to learn does not equate to complicated.

Muchas Gracias

Don't blame NFHS for this one. NCAA was first to make the change; it seems the college coaches, all college graduates, most with graduate degrees, even some with doctorates, just couldn't grasp why a position called DEfense ONly could play offense (when she was no longer playing that position!! When you move your catcher to shortstop, she isn't catcher any more is she??) sometime during a game. They insisted a new name be coined, and FLEX was the NCAA creation. ASA agreed to accept the new term, for consistency; when NFHS decided to adopt the rule to replace the more baseball DH rule, it adopted the then universal names.

Couches only know one thing-----lazy bodies avoiding "honey dews". My Honey threw my couch out
couple years ago.

And you are entitled to your opinion.

However, the rule is actually a participation rule created and developed at the request of the coaches and their teams, not the umpires, administrators or the officers of the respective associations which use it.

If I had my druthers, I would get rid if it and NOT replace it with anything else like the ludicrous DH. Play both sides of the contest or don't play at all.

Like you said, Steve, the folks just couldn't grasp the concept of when the player designated as the DEFO batted, that player was no longer the DEFO because that position had disappeared. When not batting this player is defense only, hence the name.