The Play

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

In ASA, if the batter is put out, all force plays are off, and no subsequent out can be a force out (excepting some TWP where a runner reinstates his force by retreating). .

No, if the BR is retired, there can NEVER be a force out.

[tcannizzo]

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

1) The BR is a R after reaching 1st, so you can take it literally even though your understanding is correct.

2) "On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured" is a rule; so if the force has been removed before the appeal is made, it is by rule no longer a force.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

Rule on this one...

R1 on 2B. R2 on 1B. BR hits to shallow RF. All runners off, but R1 stumbles and falls (no OBS) before reaching 3B. R2 stops after rounding 2B waiting for R1 to get going again. BR rounds 1B and is heading to 2B when F4 takes the cutoff and tags BR. F4 throws to F5 at third who tags the base just before R1 finally touches 3B.

Is R1 out?

[tcannizzo]

Here is a better one.

R1 on 1B.
Ground ball to F6 who "forces" R1 out, and then throws to F3 to get B-R out at 1B.

The offense appeals that R1 was not tagged out.

What do you rule?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is a better one.

R1 on 1B.
Ground ball to F6 who "forces" R1 out, and then throws to F3 to get B-R out at 1B.

The offense appeals that R1 was not tagged out.

What do you rule?

I don't understand, since to me this reads like a simple 6-3 double play. What am I missing?

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't understand, since to me this reads like a simple 6-3 double play. What am I missing?

If the B-R being put out on the play removes all force plays, then R1 needed to be tagged for the out to stand. Otherwise it is a mis-applicaition of POE#1.

I am sure most will think I am being silly, but if the force is removed after the fact, then why wouldn't an appeal overturn the "force" out if the runner wasn't tagged.

[mcrowder]

I can't even guess where TCan is going with this. When R1 was put out, it was a force. BR being put out erases any forces, as stated above, but does not cause all previously completed forceouts to revert. That way lies anarchy!

The statement earlier that "the rule stating that putting out BR removes all forces can only refer to BR being put out prior to reaching 1B" is faulty. In fact, an extremely normal play can illustrate this. R1 on first, fly ball to shallow F9. R1 is a few steps off first, when BR passes R1. BR is out (and beyond 1B). F9 fails to catch the ball.

Is R1 still forced to 2nd? Of course not.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is a better one.

R1 on 1B.
Ground ball to F6 who "forces" R1 out, and then throws to F3 to get B-R out at 1B.

The offense appeals that R1 was not tagged out.

What do you rule?

That the offense is nuts.

[UmpireErnie]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is a better one.

R1 on 1B.
Ground ball to F6 who "forces" R1 out, and then throws to F3 to get B-R out at 1B.

The offense appeals that R1 was not tagged out.

What do you rule?

You rule R1 out, period.

Tcan: You have to consider the timing. At the time R1 is put out at 2B, the force was on so she did not have to be tagged.

The offense does not make an appeal that the defense missed the tag. This is simply not an appeal play. Read section A of POE 1 “Types of Appeals”. None of them are appeals made by the offense. They are appeals made by the defense in an attempt to get an out called on an offensive player.

Now about your original play. Since you are quoting lines out of an ASA book I am assuming you are speaking ASA. In that case I believe your ruling is incorrect.

You are missing the point of the last sentence: "On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occurred."

In the original play, at the time the appeal was made on R2 missing 3B, the force had been removed because the BR was put out prior to the appeal. The third out was NOT a force out at the time of the appeal even though at the time of missing the base the runner was forced to advance to it.

So ASA 5-5-B 1. (the provision for no runs scoring when the third out is a force) does not apply. But go down two sentences to 5-5-B 3. which says that a runner who follows a runner who becomes the third out of the inning via a proper appeal cannot score. This provision will apply to our sitch.

R1 scores as she is in front of the third out, R2 does not score as she is the third out (on appeal), and R3 does not score because she followed the runner who became the third out.

Now, if you were calling a game using NFHS rules, your ruling would be correct. NFHS 9-1-1 Exceptions list the reasons for not counting a run on the third out. Exception four states "when a third out is declared on an appeal play resulting in a force out. (This play takes precedence if enforcing of it would negate a score) Also NFHS 2-1-11 reads "If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance, no runs would score if it is the third out." No sentance about the timing of the play as in the ASA rule.

[tcannizzo]

UmpErn and others,

I appreciate the lesson. I am now able to rule on this sitch correctly.

I withdraw my previous sitch about the offense appealing a missed tag. Obviously that is not a valid appeal. That was just an embarassing case of getting caught up on a message board thread. Not the first time I have publicly eaten crow. Probably won't be the last either.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Rule on this one...

R1 on 2B. R2 on 1B. BR hits to shallow RF. All runners off, but R1 stumbles and falls (no OBS) before reaching 3B. R2 stops after rounding 2B waiting for R1 to get going again. BR rounds 1B and is heading to 2B when F4 takes the cutoff and tags BR. F4 throws to F5 at third who tags the base just before R1 finally touches 3B.

Is R1 out?

Only if it's the top of the seventh and raining.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

Sorry, Tony, but there is no force out

[greymule]

No, if the BR is retired, there can NEVER be a force out.

As I said, it would take a TWP. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles flies deep to center. Abel takes off toward 3B. F8 makes the catch and Abel returns to 2B but in his meth stupor forgets what base he had started on and continues toward 1B. As Abel is halfway back to 1B and beginning to wonder why Baker is standing on 1B, the defense throws to 2B to FORCE Abel, who had retreated and reinstated the force.

[greymule]

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

WAS forced at one point. But at the time he was called out, the force was off. ASA is different from OBR.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally. Yes. Take it literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out. But when the appeal was made, it was not a force in ASA.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

ASA case play: Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles gets a hit down the RF line. Abel scores. Baker misses 2B and advances to 3B. (Note that Abel was forced to 2B at the time he missed it.) Charles is thrown out (for the second out) trying for a double. The umpire then upholds the appeal of Baker's miss of 2B for the third out. Ruling: Abel's run scores, as the BR was put out before the appeal, so all forces are off. The third out is not a force out.