The Play

[BuggBob]

One of the confusing things for me in this string was the force issue. I cannot find any circumstance where an appeal would be considered a force. All appeals are NOT a force. Now my syntax is starting to sound like the NFHS test, but I think you all understand what I am trying to say.

Bugg

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by BuggBob

One of the confusing things for me in this string was the force issue. I cannot find any circumstance where an appeal would be considered a force. All appeals are NOT a force. Now my syntax is starting to sound like the NFHS test, but I think you all understand what I am trying to say.

Bugg

A base missed that a runner was forced to is a "force out", if appealed before any succeeding runner is put out.

[mcrowder]

Bugg, change it to 2 outs, and take away the out on BR, and this is a force out on appeal, and NO runs score.

Or on a 2-out Bases loaded homer, R3 from 1st misses 2nd base and is appealed after everyone comes home and the ball is made live. The appeal on R3 is a force, and no runs score.

[greymule]

In ASA, if the batter is put out, all force plays are off, and no subsequent out can be a force out (excepting some TWP where a runner reinstates his force by retreating). Therefore, the appeal at 3B is not a force play. Only one run scores. But whether it was a force play or not, no runs can score behind the runner called out for missing 3B for the third out.

In OBR, the appeal at 3B would be a force play, because the runner was forced at the time he missed the bag. But the point is moot in this case, as no following runners could score anyway.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

In ASA, if the batter is put out, all force plays are off, and no subsequent out can be a force out (excepting some TWP where a runner reinstates his force by retreating). .

No, if the BR is retired, there can NEVER be a force out.

[tcannizzo]

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

1) The BR is a R after reaching 1st, so you can take it literally even though your understanding is correct.

2) "On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured" is a rule; so if the force has been removed before the appeal is made, it is by rule no longer a force.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

Rule on this one...

R1 on 2B. R2 on 1B. BR hits to shallow RF. All runners off, but R1 stumbles and falls (no OBS) before reaching 3B. R2 stops after rounding 2B waiting for R1 to get going again. BR rounds 1B and is heading to 2B when F4 takes the cutoff and tags BR. F4 throws to F5 at third who tags the base just before R1 finally touches 3B.

Is R1 out?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Here is my interp:

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

Sorry, Tony, but there is no force out

[greymule]

No, if the BR is retired, there can NEVER be a force out.

As I said, it would take a TWP. Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles flies deep to center. Abel takes off toward 3B. F8 makes the catch and Abel returns to 2B but in his meth stupor forgets what base he had started on and continues toward 1B. As Abel is halfway back to 1B and beginning to wonder why Baker is standing on 1B, the defense throws to 2B to FORCE Abel, who had retreated and reinstated the force.

[greymule]

From the ASA rule book, Points of Emphasis, POE #1:

"J) Force Out: If an appeal is honored at a base to which a runner was forced to advance and the out is a force out, no runs would score if it was the third out....

R2 was forced to advance to 3B.

WAS forced at one point. But at the time he was called out, the force was off. ASA is different from OBR.

. . .If the batter-runner is put out or is the first out on multiple outs on the same play, this would eliminate all force outs.

We can't take this literally. Yes. Take it literally.
Common sense can only mean if the B-R was retired before reaching 1B. And all runners to the next base. Therfore R2 was forced to 3B.

On an appeal play, the force out is determined when the appeal is made, not when the infraction occured."

In this sitch, the force out was made as a result of the appeal which puts the 3rd out as the force out. But when the appeal was made, it was not a force in ASA.

Therfore no runs score on this play.

ASA case play: Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles gets a hit down the RF line. Abel scores. Baker misses 2B and advances to 3B. (Note that Abel was forced to 2B at the time he missed it.) Charles is thrown out (for the second out) trying for a double. The umpire then upholds the appeal of Baker's miss of 2B for the third out. Ruling: Abel's run scores, as the BR was put out before the appeal, so all forces are off. The third out is not a force out.