Balk/Illegal Pitch???
 

Pitcher comes set and then begins her windup. Catches cleat and stumbles but does not finish pitch.

The pitch is considered a ball I believe.

Now if there are runners on base are they allowed to advance to the next base or is this a dead ball?

The pitch actually begins in softball when one hand is removed from the ball after the one touch. There is no set; there is a required pause to take or simulate taking a signal. Some pitchers' motion includes part of the windup prior to bringing the hands together.

The above means that the pitch may or may not have started. If it started, it is an illegal pitch; and all illegal pitches are penalized by a ball on the batter, and a base to each runner. The ball is not dead in any case. If the pitch did not start, this is a "no pitch", and the ball is still alive. The word balk "balk" does not appear in softball rulebooks.

This may be different in the baseball cloned rulesets (Little League and Pony), but is true for all softball based rules.

By this, I presume you mean the ball never leaves her hand and I agree with Steve.

At least in NFHS, if all other aspects of the stumble are legal and the ball leaves the pitcher's hand (slipping backwards or forwards or even just falling to the ground) 6-2-6 states that it is a pitch and a ball on the batter.

Stevie, why the inappropriate crack?
 

Why make a totally inappropriate crack about PONY and LL softball? PONY puts the rules on the web. Unlike ASA which keeps the rules secret. And the PONY rules for girls softball are totally in accord with Fed rules for pitching and are generally in accord with ASA. So, why your totally inappropriate crack about PONY using baseball derived rules for softball?

Perhaps you should apologize on this forum right now.

Perhaps you have an ASA bias. Well, many of us in NJ would like to see ASA support girls softball. But, it seems like this will never happen. Not as long as the current ASA structure in NJ makes money off of what seems to be a flat out illegal insurance operation. That takes insurance money for teams but does nothing to support girls softball in NJ.

Ed - I've read and reread Steve's comments, and I'm completely unable to see what you thought was inappropriate or required an apology. I see nothing derogatory toward baseball at all, merely a comment that the answer to the question may be different from what he stated in baseball, but that his answer is correct for all different rulesets of softball.

What's the beef?

My understanding is (or used to be) the same as Steve's regarding LL. When I did LL Softball, the rules were slightly different from ASA and NFHS in some technical situations like can a player overrun first on a walk or can they back up toward home plate to avoid a tag. Those rules seemed to be consistant with BB rules, like the roots of the rules were in BB philosophy.

I have never done Pony and have not done LL in a quite a while. I don't know if that is still true, or if there are differences in the pitching regulations in this situation.

Ed doesn't like ASA. He doesn't like the fact that ASA considers the rule book as an umpire/team registration benefit.

If I remember correctly, he was also part of a group who intended to sue ASA this season concerning an equipment issue.

JMHO,

What I don't like
 

What I don't like is an organization that has the brass ones to call itself the National Governing body of softball in the US that continues to refuse to make its rules available to the public.

And what I don't like in NJ is the simple fact that the organization is nothing but an insurance collection agency as far a girls fastpitch is concerned. Anyone in America can go onto the national ASA website right now, click on the New Jersey link, and see that there is no information whatsoever regarding current happenings in the fastpitch world.

The big question, why does Mikey seem to support the current terrible state of ASA softball in NJ?

To MCCrowder, my issue is that an umpire said PONY softball rules are derived from baseball. Despite the fact that the rules seem to be Fed softball rules with some leaning to ASA rules. Where did the Atlanta ump come up with the assertion that PONY softball rules are cloned from baseball?

It sounds like someone needs to address the local New Jersey problem and settle down. I saw NO slap in the face towards any other organization in the original post. I have NO issue with ASA not putting the rules online. If you want a copy of the rules.............register.... If you want to make New Jersey ASA better.......participate...... if not......... ( I cant type that...my Momma would be PISSED). As Cheesy (and pointless) as "the national governing body of softball" sounds....they ARE the leading organization in most areas....Ill say it again...If New Jersey isnt the way you like it..... start to work changing it.

Ed,
I will echo what Darrell said, and steal a quote from someone else.

You can lead, follow or get out of the way. If you don't like the way things are, I suggest you become a leader. What have YOU done to make things better, what are you doing now to make things better, and what will you do in the future?

If you have a question about ASA being the National Governing Body of Softball, I suggest you do a little research to find out why that is instead of coming in here half-cocked with some cockamamie agenda that, in my humble opinion, is horribly invalid.

Why others publicly publish their rules I have no idea, but it's a stupid idea. Anyone who pays their dues can get a rule book. Teams get rule books, leagues get rule books, umpires get rule books - all they have to do is register.

Not all the money goes for insurance, but thank goodness some does. A few years ago in a state south of here, there was a very tragic accident. A life was lost, there were bills to pay. The folks at Bollinger, in my humble opinion, went above and beyond. And if you think LL and PONY don't feed at the insurance trough, I have some other news for ya...

ASA doesn't "call" itself the NGB, the USOC and congress do that in accordance with U.S. Code 2205

http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/36C2205.txt

That is true with many states and metros. Just because they don't submit their schedule to the national office doesn't mean nothing is happening. I know plenty of umpires in NJ that work every weekend, so something is going on.I don't worry about NJ, I have enough to deal with in DE. See, your problem is you have never taken the time to find out how the ASA works, hence ignorance drives your comments.

Maybe because PONY is a baseball-driven organization like LL unlike ASA and other organizations which are softball-driven organizations.

BTW, I believe PONY's insurance program runs through the same NJ-based company that ASA's does.

Like I said folks, Ed doesn't like ASA. Still waiting to hear how that lawsuit is going.

Answer the question!
 

Why don't we stick to the original question, and leave who is the governing body, king of softball or what ever, to another thread.

Ball on the batter, since the pitcher began her wind up, and did not complete it. I had this very same thing last night.

Because we don't know the rule set.

In NFHS ball, where the pitch has started with any normal motion, and the pitcher does not complete the delivery, the call is IP, ball and on the batter, and advance runners.

In ASA any preliminary motion doesn't matter, the pitch doesn't start until the hands separate. If the hands did not separate, then the pitcher can stop, and step back off the plate and we have NO CALL. If hands did separate, then call is the same as in the NFHS.

WMB

Ed is a well-known troll from eteamz. Best to ignore him.

A couple of technical / rules issues raised in this thread, though.

1) State associations (in all softball organizations I am aware of, including ASA, NFHS, AFA, etc. - no Pony in these parts) are independent of each other. Officials in one state have no authority over officials in another state.

2) "National Governing Body of Softball" is not what ASA "calls itself." It is what ASA is. This means the ASA is the governing body for international softball as it pertains to US national teams, team formation, rules, etc. It relates to international competion. It is something ASA has earned and is justly proud of.

3) Both Pony and LL are predominately baseball-centric organizations who also have a softball division. Nothing necessarily wrong with that in principle, but you cannot pretend it is not true, either. LL, in particular, has what might be called modified baseball rules rather than softball rules. Don't know about Pony.

As to the OP's question, the answer will depend on the rules being used in the game, as several have pointed out. There would be a different interpretation between ASA and NFHS, as WMB has pointed out.

PS: There are several ways to purchase an ASA rule book, and Ed has been informed of these in the past. He rants and raves mostly to get a response.

Sorry, I'll continue the hijack. Regardless of feelings about ASA or others, the fact remains that PONY (not Pony) has taken over youth fastpitch around here. Nothing against them, but I constantly wish it would go back to ASA. PONY did start out with BB, but as said above, PONY softball rules have become very "softball-ish" and the differences are no harder to deal with than any other rule set differences. Nothing against them, but I constantly wish local teams would go back to ASA.

Your question is backwards. The question <i>should</i> be, "Why do some organizations <i>not</i> publish their rules (on the internet)?"

To be fair to ASA, they are joined by NFHS in this proprietary approach to their rules.

Why should the rules only be available to umpires and registered teams? What's the logic in that?

Why can't the average person (i.e. fan) have access to those rules?

Face it - it's a money making thing!

Umpires frequently complain about how ignorant fans are of their rulings. I think <i>anybody</i> should be able to look up (and educate themselves) as to what "obstruction" is, how it is determined, and what the penalties for the infraction are. What's the big deal?

What's the harm in making the rules open to the general public?

They'll take your money at the gate but not extend you the right to fully understand the game you're paying for.

The game is not <i>all</i> about the players, coaches, and umpires.

Sporting events are public exhibitions!

Heck, if you like a certain song you can easily find the lyrics to that song on the internet. You may have to PAY to hear the song, but the lyrics are FREE. Why would a sporting event be any different?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Why not freely publish the rules? Because that isn't their business model. You can easily find things on the internet that are public domain; items which are propietary and copywrited remain the property of the owner, who should have the right to decide how to operate the business.

It is obviously the opinion of the ASA National Council that a significant number of team registrations would disappear if the rulebook wasn't connected with the team registration. Even more leagues than now (and we know they exist) would say they play "ASA rules" but not bother to register the teams. And, if the rules were freely available, why should they? There is always the market force to save the registration fees; and if umpires will work unregistered and unsanctioned games for the same fee, and if their insurance situation is unaffected, to many organizations, the only reason to pay registration fees is to get the rulebooks (and scorebooks).

If it was possible to make the rules publicly viewable, but impossible to print your own free copy, I might agree. But, just like everyone believes they know the ingredients to the Big Mac "special sauce", that doesn't mean McDonalds should be required to publish it.

This issue of giving away the published rules on the internet is juvenile whining.

The "general public" can get an ASA rule book in numerous ways:

1) Do a google search for illicit copies posted (they exist)
2) Ask your team's coach for his copy of last year's book and download the rule changes
3) Register with ASA
4) Contact your state / association UIC. Many will sell you a copy.
5) Find a copy for sale on ebay
6) Find a copy for sale in used book stores

Or, just whine about it.

1. Don't make it personal, and don't should on me either. It's my question and I'll ask it how I please. Thank you.

2. Song lyrics are not free. They are copyrighted proprietary material. Are they available out there? Yep. But they're not free unless they are in the public domain.

3. Sporting events are not necessarily public exhibitions.

It only sounds like you're <i>taking</i> it personal. Did I flame you in some way that I'm not aware of? ... Unless, you happen to be one of those people who thinks it's a personal affront whenever anybody disagrees with them.

Teams don't register with ASA <i>just</i> to get the rulebook. C'mon! Who believes that? They register with ASA so they can play in ASA tournaments. And teams play in ASA tournaments mostly based on geography.

If a certain community had only USSSA and NSA tournaments, then the local teams would all likely play in <i>those</i> tournaments. They wouldn't say, "Even though we're not going to play any ASA tournaments, let's register just to get the rulebook!"

Most coaches can't even <i>find</i> their rulebook. ASA sends it to them and it ends up at the bottom of their sock drawer, or, it gets tattered to shreds at the bottom of the equipment bag. (Have you ever noticed how easily the pages fall out of an ASA rulebook?)

* * *

Also, just because something is copyrighted does not necessarily prohibit the owner from making it available online to the public. If you own something you have the right to disseminate it in any manner you find appropriate. If that means making it available on the internet - so be it. MLB does it. USSSA does it. NSA does it. AFA does it. Countless other organizations do it. I'm quite certain MLB <i>owns</i> the rights to their rules.

I'm not arguing that ASA doesn't have the <i>right</i> to make their rules unavailable online; I'm only questioning, "Why?"

If it's about money, I think that is a horrible reason.

And, if the ASA "thinks" that teams will only register to get a rulebook, then that comes very close to extortion.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Question to David
 

Do you agree that ASA should make its rules publicly available? Even if they use the Fed procedures where the rules are not available online free to the public. Using the Fed procedures where they publish a booklet that is sold through sports good stores.

First of all, I wish FED made their rules more readily available online.

But, to answer your question, yes, I think it would be better if ASA made their rules more readily available - like at a sporting goods store. That would be an improvement.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

You aren't thinking about the rec league in town, and in the next town, ad infinitum. Sure, the travel teams want to play in ASA tournaments; so do some of the more elite adult teams. But, the vast majority of rec leagues are made up of teams that just want to play recreational softball; be it youth slow pitch, youth fast pitch, or adult slow pitch. They honestly have no reason to ever play in a tournament; they just want to play recreational softball. Every alphabet organization wants their registration and their business, and that means they may (the alphabet organization) would most likely get umpire registrations, too.

If the teams just want to play rec ball, and really don't care what the championship rules are, or what tournaments may be available, just what does any softball organization offer in return for registering their teams? Think about that. Rec leagues like that either stay unaffiliated (because they can!!), or affiliate with some organization for a business reason. The reasons are 1) getting access to umpires, 2) getting access to group insurance, and 3) getting rule books, scorebooks, and other tangible items of value. Otherwise, they wouldn't register.

No, I'm not talking about church leagues and rec. ball. I'm talking about competitive, traveling teams.

ASA isn't the only show in town. There are pockets throughout the country where ASA is <i>not</i> all that popular. There are areas where AFA, NSA, and USSSA are actually more prevalent. I'm not saying it is because they don't like ASA - it's just that some other sanctioning body has taken firmer root there, for one reason or another.

Those teams have little interest in registering with ASA. The alleged "enticement" to get the rulebook is moot. They could care less.

And even teams that <i>do</i> play an aggressive ASA schedule - the rulebook is not an issue to those teams. Like I said, it either gets lost, forgotten, or left behind. I blame the teams for that.

Coaches <i>should</i> take more time to educate themselves on the rules and to educate their players with the rules, as well. Fewer arguments would certainly be one side benefit.

SIDENOTE: Years ago, the head coach for my daughter's team got quite upset when, with the bases loaded and only one out in a critical situation in a critical game, one of our batters hit a pop-up to the 3rd baseman. The umpires properly ruled it an Infield Fly, but the fielder lost it in the sun and dropped it. Our runners became confused and, to make a long story short, the defense ended up registering TWO outs as our runners were being tagged and caught in rundowns.

He was very upset and I had to calm him down by saying, "Mark, we really can't blame the players. Have we ever taught them what an Infield fly <i>is</i> and what it <i>means</i>? We haven't. This is the kind of stuff that eventually happens. They didn't know that they had the option of remaining on the base."

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

So, recognizing that, how do you reconcile the church leagues and rec leagues that DO register ASA? Something made them make that decision; what was it? Or, what combination of things?

No matter how you perceive it, no matter that other organizations do it differently. The ASA Commissioners believe their business model is best served by not making the rulebook a matter of public domain. That is their decision, and, so far, no one has (in their mind) proven that wrong.

You point out numerous organizations that make their rulebook public; yet, you note that people don't understand a universally fundamental rule, the infield fly. To my knowledge, there is absolutely nothing that any alphabet organization in baseball or softball does that makes it unique to their game. Yet, you point to that as being a reason why ASA or NFHS need to make their rulebooks publicly available? Hell, why didn't your coach read any of the other rulebooks? I submit that he (and the vast majority of individuals who don't know rules now) wouldn't read any other book, either; whether ASA or NFHS. That is his fault and problem; not the result of the business decisions of ASA and/or NFHS.

Well, let me ask <i>you</i>. Since the topic is: WHY DOESN'T THE ASA MAKE IT'S RULES MORE READILY AVAILABLE?

Are you claiming that teams register in order to get their own personal copy of the ASA rulebook?

Please, tell me that is <i>not</i> the case you are making.

They're churches! They made a decision to adopt ASA rules as their system of rules. That makes them an ASA league. So they registered. They dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's, just as you would expect any church to do. But I can assure you it <i>isn't</i> because they could get their own copy of the coveted ASA rulebook.

It's difficult to imagine how a system of rules falls under the umbrella of a "business decision." I certainly hope that the ASA is as successful as it is for some reason <i>other</i> than the fact that they like to keep their rulebook under lock and key.

Are you claiming they are a successful organization <i>because</i> of the manner in which they handle their system of rules? I hope not.

The shortcoming in my example is one of the coaches'. It is independent of whether the rulebook is available online or not.

Actually, my argument more directly addresses the fans, parents, and followers of the sport. They do not have any convenient access to the rules should they even desire to educate themselves. It shouldn't be as difficult as ordering and paying for a book after researching and finding out how even <i>that</i> can be done.

The internet has changed the landscape forever. It is truly the information highway. To make a conscious decision to exclude something as mundane as a system of rules for softball is absolutely amazing - "business model" or not. It's kind of crazy if you ask me.

I'm not saying how the system of rules is disseminated is what makes an organization unique. It just seems logical to me.

If I was promoting the game of Monopoly, I certainly wouldn't begin my promotion campaign by making the rules of Monopoly difficult to obtain.

Hell, this country has a Freedom of Information Act. The ASA ought to jump on board and stop making their rules like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Why????? To make money off the sale of books? I doubt if it's a great source of income.

I agree. And that's why I made the comment. Do you think making the rules difficult to obtain HELPS or EXACERBATES a problem we all know exists?

I hope you're not saying, "Since they probably wouldn't read it anyway - why make it readily available?"

The information should be out there for the benefit of the well-intended individual who is motivated to understand the game more thoroughly - whether they be a coach, player, parent, or fan.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

The ASA rule book is a benefit of registration. PERIOD!

I approached the computer geek of the NUS, Steve's good friend, about putting the rules on-line for registered member, but we all know that passwords would be freely distributed.

BTW, PONY moved to more ASA-like rules because, at least in this area, poach ASA umpires along with the uniforms. I know umpires who were told to use ASA rules when working PONY tournaments because it didn't make any difference.

Leagues register PONY for the benefit of "earning" non-qualifying berths to what are basically open national tournaments.

That's simply stating a fact. The question is, "Why?"

The issue isn't <i>just</i> about putting the rules online. If you have to PAY to see the rules, one way or the other, I find that philosophically bizarre.

I don't see where it's a problem for an organization to say that they are going to adopt the *same* rules as used by ASA. It's mostly a matter of expediency. Why reinvent the wheel? The sport of softball is what it is. ASA doesn't <i>own</i> the sport any more than they "own" the Infield Fly Rule.

So?

An organization can run their national tournaments in any manner they find appropriate. If the system proves to be faulty then teams will "vote" with their feet - they simply won't attend.

There are many people who think that the ASA's system of running qualifiers and national tournaments is flawed. 3-game guarantee. No pool games. Double elimination. Yet, teams that lose their first two games are *not* eliminated. On the other hand, a team that loses-wins-loses *is* eliminated. If you lose your first game of the tournament the second game amounts to not much more than a practice game because losing your first two games does *not* eliminate a team. Such a team could, theoretically, go on to be the tournament champion despite having lost two games in a double elimination tournament.

I know many teams that don't pursue ASA qualifying tournaments because you simply don't get a lot of "bang for the buck." Who wants to travel a long distance to possibly play only 3 games?

And the crazy thing is that not until recently, ASA created this 3-game guarantee provision for these tournaments. Previously, one quarter of the teams attending these tournaments were eliminated in only two games. Tournament over! I'm sure the complaints piled high until they modified the tournament format with a 3-game guarantee. But that interjected another flaw ... the possibility of a 2-game-loser champion.

Why do they have such a format? My guess - it allows more teams to attend (read: MONEY!) because you are eliminating teams early and often thus allowing the facility to handle a greater number of teams. There's basically no room nor time for pool play based on the number of teams in the tournament.

To be fair, many years ago, my daughter's 12U team played in an NSA "A" National Tournament in Jupiter, FL - and they adopted the same tournament format. Nobody liked it.

People were saying, "You mean if we should lose our first two games we're not eliminated? Is this a double elimination tournament or not?"

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Dave, you ask questions. You are provided answers of fact.

You then insist on arguing about anything which doesn't fit into your belief of what is right and do it while ignoring the already provided information.

You continue to bring an uninformed opinion to the mix as you just demonstrated above concerning the 3-game guarantee.

See ya

Fair enough. I won't belabor my opinion on DP/FLEX nor ASA's reluctance to make their rules readily available. You're right. I'm probably beating a dead horse. My opinion is known - some agree, some disagree. I guess we can leave it at that.

Did you mean "uniformed" or "uninformed" opinion?

If you meant <b>UNINFORMED</b> then I would only say that my description of the format of ASA qualifiers and national tournaments is 100% accurate. The tournament host must comply with the format as mandated by ASA. Many find that format disagreeable.

Again, I can only speak from experience. I have attended many ASA qualifers and several national tournaments. The participants would prefer a different format.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Quoting myself...See? Ample evidence of that in this thread.

I'm offended. :(
Ancient history.

More because it is less expensive and in many areas requires less travel cost.

Form what I see, umpires around here would gladly welcome back ASA Fastpitch and so would teams if ASA were more flexible.

Nothing I can do about that, it is the truth. I have personally witnessed it TO THE POINT that I was told to my face by a PONY representative they were doing exactly that in the middle of a meeting. I have also found them preying upon new umpires and lying to them about the sanctioning and insurance coverage during an ASA State Clinic.

I have no problem if the umpire wants to work PONY or any other game, but not on my time and sweat.

Have no idea what you are talking about there. I am included in the JO meetings with the different leagues and travel teams and have been told that the reason they hosted PONY tournaments is so they don't have to qualify. Travelling to any location is just as expensive regardless of the sanctioning body.