Need Some Help...
 

This is one that I've gotten a different answer from two different Umpires.

With a runner on 1st, only one out, two strikes to the batter, the batter swings at and misses a pitch that hits her hand. The runner at 1st was attempting a steal of 2nd and is tagged out prior to reaching the base. What is the call? Which call below is correct?

1. Dead ball. The batter is the only out.
2. Live ball. The batter is out with strike three and the runner is out on the tag.
3. Dead ball. The batter is awarded first for being hit by a pitch.
4. Foul ball. The hands are part of the bat. The runner must return to first.

nothin' like fun at the ole' ball park!

Anytime the batter is hit with a pitch, whether it is a strike or not, what is the first thing that you as an umpire must do?

Doesn't matter how many different answers you get; only one can be correct. Whenever a batter is contacted with a pitch, it is a dead ball. If the pitch is a strike, whether called or swinging, it is a dead ball strike. If that makes strike three, batter is out. No one else can be out or advance on a dead ball.

Are you answering a question with a question?... :)

The first thing to call is Dead Ball and then determine if the batter gets to take a base, or if she didn't make an attempt to move away from the ball just make the call strike or ball. So if a ball hits her hand while swinging it would be a dead ball and she goes to first base and the runner stealing cannot be called out on a dead ball, so she simply goes to 2nd. One of the local umpires said the batters hand is part of the bat and another said it's not, which would make a big difference in the call. Still looking for the answer in the rule book. I remember reading something about it in the rules last year, but the USSSA rule book is not well organized IMO, and takes so long to find anything. Thanks, ... Al

Al, why are you sending this batter to first base on a 3rd strike?

Ball hits batter - dead ball.

Batter was swinging - so it's a strike - the 3rd one in this case. Batter out.

Ball was dead - R1 back to first.

And if you have an umpire EVER say "the hands are part of the bat", do your best to avoid this non-umpire in the future. This is myth 1-A in the book that every REAL umpire who has attended even a single clinic (or spent one day here on the forum) knows is false.

Steve,


That's what I recall the proper call to be in this situation. Ring rust has set in over the last several months of off season. Thanks Steve, ..Al

Hey mcrowder,

That was more of a question I had with someone that believes the hand is part of the bat. I just heard this from an ump and it didn't ring true with my memory, so I posed the question to the board. Thank you! ...Al

Steve wrote: .."Whenever a batter is contacted with a pitch, it is a dead ball. If the pitch is a strike, whether called or swinging, it is a dead ball strike. If that makes strike three, batter is out. No one else can be out or advance on a dead ball".

I've been a coach pitch umpire, where there is no stealing or situations like the one I presented. I was told that I may be working some fastpitch this year from time to time. So of course, I have a lot to get straight in my mind, especially if behind the plate. But, even if I'm working the bases it's vital that I know the rules that may come into play. Some angry coach may want an appeal to me on a play such as this one. I'm glad I found this board, where clarity and accuracy can be found to many situations that may and do come up on the field... All you guys are a great source of help. ..And I appreciate it! Thanks to Brad also for doing a great job running a fine forum! ..Al

Al,
Another one to remember - no coach may "appeal" to you about a call your partner made. Should one try, send the coach to your partner with a simple "Coach, my partner made the call, you need to talk to my partner." I put the word appeal in quotes, 'cuz that's not an appeal.

I am a teacher by profession, so it is second nature to me to try and make a person think through a situation first. Of course, everyone else chimed in with the correct answer and robbed you of a learning moment. ;)

As you now know, the instant the batter was hit by the pitch, you would have had a dead ball. That means no other action can occur. Since it was the third strike on the batter, she is out.

Thanks Skahtboi,

And you do a good job teaching! I enjoy learning from your posts, as well as some others. Last year I filled in as base umpire two times for fast pitch teams. The administrator wanted me to get some on the job training, and tried to work me in when possible. He knows I love the game and desire to advance to higher levels. (although I am a bit nervous, thinking about first time behind the plate). In one game a pitched ball went behind a left handed batter and the plate umpire called it a ball. The coach said it hit her, and after a heated show of anger he asked the plate umpire if he could ask me (base ump down the first base foul line) if the ball hit her. The plate umpire said yes...I saw the ball did hit the girl's shirt, so I said "the ball hit her". The plate umpire said take your base. Get this > after the girl got to first base she said "the ball didn't hit me, but I felt it touch my shirt". I had just read the rules on that play and told her if the ball hits your shirt it's the same as hitting you, unless your shirt is hanging way out of your pants. The plate umpire told me after the inning that the girl had told her the ball didn't hit her, and he said he was not aware of the rule about a ball hitting a batters garments. I wish our area had better umpires at the 10 and under fastpitch level to learn from.

Anyway, as Steve has mentioned...Could I have refused to call it when the plate umpire granted the coach permission to ask me, thinking I had a better view of the play, and hoping for a different call? Could I have simply said:.. "It's his call and the call was made, so it stands? In other words if the plate umpire, or the base umpire, is asked for help does he have to say yea or ney? And if so should he/she just let a wrong call stand, if given a chance to correct it? I don't want to ever change my partners call unless I am absolutly possitive he made a bad call. And vise versa. I do understand this could create problems, but would expect it to be a very rare thing. Well, this has been a beautiful day here in central TN. so I'm off to the park to see if there are any games or practices going on. ...Later, ...Al

Since the girl was swinging, the ball contacted her hand, so I am assuming that the catcher did not catch out of the air. Is the correct call the batter is out right there OR the dropped third strike principle is in effect and there is a need for a tag of B/R or a throw to first?

Al, if a coach wants the umpire to "get a 2nd opinion" from his partner, it should be the UMPIRE that has the discussion with his partner, with no coaches anywhere near. In no case should you allow the coach to go discuss the play with another umpire.

Pigsuey? Uh.... what are you talking about?

A buddy of mine was telling me about a recent (last week) televised NCAA game where this happened and the PU got it wrong .. but the BU fixed it.

Sad really.

It doesn't matter if the catcher caught the ball or not. It's dead as soon as it hits the batter. So, no, there is no need to throw the dead ball to 1st base for the out.

Al, you can't refuse to take a call publically without causing all kinds of grief that you don't need. Get together with your partner if that comes up without the coaches or players present.

The best thing is to follow good proceedure. Appeals must be made to the umpire that made the call, never chime in on your own, even at the request of a coach.

If the appeal is a public one, the appealing umpire should ask a specific question which can be answered yes or no, no discussion. "Do you have a swing?" , "Do you have a pulled foot?" or "Did it hit her?" are examples and the responses are Yes,no, safe or out. Never ask your partner something that requires a discussion like "Was she safe?" because try as they might, sometimes partners aren't there to make your calls for you.

If the appeal requires discussion because timing is involved or a rule is in question do your discussion privately. I once had a conversation with a partner that went "Man, I had my head up my *** on that call." We then did a lot of nodding and pointing and in the end that umpire then turns around and reversed the call. I'll never admit which party I was in the conversation. Bottom line though is that after the discussion, it's still the original umpires call and announcement.

Remember as stated earlier, the correct term is not "appeal" in this scenario. Dave

Great advice! And if I umpire fastpitch I will make absolutely sure me and my partner are on the same page, and understands that too. It's a big step up from coach-pitch to fastpitch, and I realize more and more I'm a little too green for this forum. I think I'll stay on the side-lines for a while, until I get some experience in higher play.

Last night I was watching a baseball game (high school). WOW! The umpires have a tough job at that level!

BTW, Last night I saw that little girl (Brooklyn) who I wrote about in the most exciting play thread. The girl who was promised a surprise from Wal-mart if she hits a homerun. I got a tap on my shoulder, turned around and there she was with her grandmother. And just like I thought I didn't have to ask her about her surprise. She told me her Daddy gave her a $100.00 Wal-Mart gift certificate and she still hasn't spent it all. ... Thanks, ChampaignBlue, ...Al

Actually, I would rather do high school and college than rec ball. It is so much easier to keep your focus at the higher levels, and the game really moves along.

I think I posted this earlier, but it may have been on eteams.

There are many ways in which a young kids game is harder than a varsity, NCAA, or pro game. You will see your rules knowledge tested on a regular basis on a youth field - possibly every game. Plays which most people call Third World will happen to you. Bizarre combinations of different rules come into play at the same time. However, you can usually get by with just adequate mechanics, as you are (hopefully) much faster than the participants and can recover from a mechanics error. Also, most (not all, but most) coaches are not in this for life and death - and almost all are not paid. This is double edged, as the youth coaches, being volunteers, often know far less about the rules than they should, but they also are easier to talk down, for the most part.

The higher you go, however, the less frequently the bizarre play happens. Rules knowledge is not critical as often (it's still crucial, but it may only come into play once every few weeks, instead of constantly). Mechanics, however, become critical, as do your game or coach management skills. These coaches are relying on the results of these games to put food on their tables and take it much more personally. They do have a firmer grasp of the rules than their volunteer counterparts, which can be both good and bad - sometimes they only know enough to be problematical.