I have been a coach, umpire and tournament director. After many years from each position I have had the opportunity to watch many games.
I would like to know what the average number of coaches that you have ejected from a game over the course of a year, or 5 year period. Please state if this was high school, rec. ball, tournament games or something different.
If you have tossed a good number of coaches, what was the circumstances?

None. It is the coach's choice to leave, I just show them the door.

I agree with Mike. One way or another, they've chosen to toss themselves. When they do that, I agree with them.

1 in 8 years. He deserved it (without going into the circumstances). Were there others that may have been as deserving? Maybe, but generally the stern warning seems to work and if the coach is just being stupid, I let him look stupid. I do my best to ignore ignorance, unless it becomes personal or derogatory.

By the way for me we're talking Fed, ASA, NSA and various rec situations. Almost all are youth oriented.

What is a 'stern warning'?

Thanks

Ciao

I gotta agree with Mike and Steve on this one.

OK, I might just have to amend this to "how many coaches have tossed themselves" while you were the umpire? Or maybe, "how coaches have you shown the door to"?

That's when you send the coach to the bow of the ship!

:)

I'll only answer for FP, 19 years. One assistant in HS was DQ, none in college. In ASA and PONY, I remember three coaches (one a head coach) whom I informed that they had been ejected, all lower age teams. One ASA coach was for a physical attack, ende up in court, fined and banned from coaching in that State.

In my years of umpiring, in HS ball I have benched one assistant, and even then his head coach was wanting him benched to teach him a lesson. In college, 0. In tournaments and rec leagues, I can recall 6.

<b>One ASA coach was for a physical attack, ended up in court, fined and banned from coaching in that State.</b>

Way to go. I wish that was the rule and not the exception. What state?

Did the guy (oops, or gal) actually initiate an attack?

College, none. (They know how, when and where to discuss) High School, none. ( most know the rules) Travel ball: Pony, none. (experienced) NSA, 3. (some knuckleheads) ASA, 6,(all in one tournament, two diffrent teams) Community,6 (two grandparents for swearing at me in the presence of the players, four coaches...same team
My pregame with head coaches: don't argue judegment calls, if it's a rule problem, we'll discuss it and get it right, and keep you assistant coaches under control

Proud to say none
 

I can only speak to FP. I have both umpired and coached.
I have never allowed any coach enough rope to hang him/herself.
In NFHS, I have restricted an overly excited coach or 2 to the bench.
No college coach has ever crossed the line from rules discussions to a personal attack.
Summer coaches can be knuckleheads. However, I haven't ejected any.

No offense meant here, but I don't think there should be any pride involved in saying none, just as there shouldn't be for saying 500. Game management is one thing, but if you're considering yourself "proud to say none", I suspect you've not done so when it was appropriate, and made some other umpire's life worse.

I've presided over the ejection of 11 coaches - about 1 per year.

My 2 cents
 

1 cent for each year I have been umpiring.

I know that I have just started out in all this stuff but I am now laying the groundwork for how i am going to deal with coaches.

I strongly agree with mcrowder on this. We, the officials let too much go. In the softball arena I haven't seen many coaches out of control but lots and lots of chirping. Speaking NFHS we are expected to act professional and appropriate but the coaches act anyway they seem fit. In the back of the Rulebook there is a code of ethics and i believe it is our job to make sure the coaches adhere to it. Not beg,badger,reason, or plead with them to act like adults and role models.

I do several sports and the coaches act as badly as the officials let them. Obviously BB is the worse but i just had a game where i had a coach that was acting in a manner that needed to be addressed. I didn't know what to do so I talked to her. If i could have i would have issued a Technical foul.

I started a SItch specific thread and my perception was I hould just leave the coaches. Now I am thinking but they are breaking the rules on conduct
and I want to address it in a manner that is logical and rules-based. Not pleading, begging, cajoling or soothing their little ruffled feathers cause a call didn"t go their way.

Rant Off

Interesting how you can suspect without knowing anything about me. Or my experience level.

For the record, I won't let any coach question my integrity, use profanity, insult me etc, etc.

I have canned a few baseball coaches. Since this is a softball forum I didn't count them. Same goes for players.

I say "proud to say none" because I have managed the game well enough not to have use the last resort and eject a softball coach... yet.

Re: My 2 cents
 

I don't disagree with either of you, my point is if you handle situations properly and practice preventive officating, ejections should be few and far between.

OK, on the amended question of "Or maybe, "how coaches have you shown the door to"?"

Let's see - in the last 5 years - which covers over 1400 games of fast pitch
College - 1 - and he was fired at year's end, partly for his repeated run ins with umpires.
scholastic ball - none, with 1 restriction
summer ball - 5

I agree with JFA's statement that "ejections should be few and far between."

Game management, appearance, showing that you've got skill & expertise, and what I'll call a 'command presence' all work together to keep the number of ejections low. But like the obscene, I'll know it when I see it - and I'll know how it's to be handled.

Addition - I forgot to say that I've effectively used the old FU call 3 or 4 times in that time span - and that probably save the ejection number from being higher.


[Edited by Steve M on Mar 16th, 2006 at 09:11 PM]

A little late but...

Stern warning for me means that for most of the game I just smile at stupid things coaches do. When something starts to get edgey the smile comes off, I talk to the coach face to face and say the funs over.

I must admit that I think I've been lucky. There's been many a time that I watched as a spectator and saw things that went way over the line. And of course the perspective from the stands is different from the field

Thank you so much for explaining.
(Thanks to Mike, also! :) )

Ciao

In 15 years of NFHS and ASA I have asked two coaches to leave the field, both in ASA games. I tell them in pre-game if the head coach has a question and approaches us properly we don’t mine talking. I don’t argue with coaches. I let them vent and when they are finished I give them an answer. At that point the discussion is over and I tell them “Okay coach lets play ball” and walk away. The two I asked to leave didn’t understand the discussion was over.

Well, I used the word "suspect" SPECIFICALLY because I don't know you. How else should I have phrased this, Mr. Sensitive? And I don't believe I said a single word about your experience level. There's a reason I said "No offense intended" as well, but some people can't accept even the mildest difference of opinion without getting defensive.

Quote:

For the record, I won't let any coach question my integrity, use profanity, insult me etc, etc. I have canned a few baseball coaches. Since this is a softball forum I didn't count them. Same goes for players. I say "proud to say none" because I have managed the game well enough not to have use the last resort and eject a softball coach... yet.

You're kind of making my point for me.

If an umpire feels somehow that his game management skills would take a hit if they had to resort to an ejection, it's entirely likely that umpire has let things go that warrant an ejection. If someone has ejected more than 3-4 per year, then yeah - he probably has some game management issues. But I'd actually say the same about someone who has ejected less than 1 every couple of years.

Mind you, I'm not an OOO or a guy who revels in his ejections. I'm just saying that regardless of your level of experience, if you've not ejected a guy at all, you've either been VERY lucky, or you've let stuff go that you shouldn't have. JMHO

Re: Re: My 2 cents
 

I guess I'm just trying to say there's a middle ground, and that there are problems with "not enough" just as bad as the problems that come with "too many".

I think that slightly less than 1 per season would qualify as few and far between.

When evaluating umpires, I see far too much let go that shouldn't be.

Re: Re: Re: My 2 cents
 

I believe we agree.
It was not my intention to come across as defensive. I have worked with plenty of umpires who can't tolerate their rule interp being questioned. esp Obstruct/Interfer.
They are abrupt/rude/unprofessional with the coaches and wonder why they can't get to the next level.

Steve M summed it up well
"Game management, appearance, showing that you've got skill & expertise, and what I'll call a 'command presence' all work together to keep the number of ejections low. But like the obscene, I'll know it when I see it - and I'll know how it's to be handled"

I tossed a college coach last year. He thought that if his catcher pulled the pitch into the zone it should be a strike. He was trying to intimidate me into calling strikes for his pitcher. His pitcher threw so slow that if she would have thrown a strike the other team would have crushed it. ASA ball - I have thrown 2 in 15 years.

Mr. Crowder, if that remark was addressed to me, then I do taken offense to your remark. I've never ejected a coach who wasn't deserving of that ejection, and I do not take pride in those ejections. My ejections have all come after several attempts at calming the situations, but when faced with a coach who is attempting to take over the game by ranting,raving, and acting in a disrespecful and unprofessionl manner, and fans and parents who act in a offensive way to me, thus taking the spotlight from the players, then that coach or parent is gone is a second, and there is no second guessing, remorse or guilton my part. My field is for the players, not the coaches. The question was asked, and I answered it. Please don't read between the lines and come to your own conclusion as to what I wrote, because, your conclusion is wrong.

Respecfully

In my career (about 7 years), two coaches have elected to leave the game prior to its conclusion.

A rec ball coach didn't like my call and told everybody within about a half mile radius that it was "bull$hit".

An ASA coach at Western Nationals didn't like my partners call on a steal and informed me that "you guys suck!"

Wow, whoever has the Mr. Defensive plaque needs to send it to booker. Good grief.

No, I was not referring to you AT ALL. In fact, the majority of my comments were about a poster saying he was proud to say he hadn't ejected ANYONE in softball, and my opinion that in all likelihood that probably meant he had let too much go. Whether I am right or wrong on that is indeterminate, as I don't know the guy, and only suspected that this MAY be the case - he may just have coaches that "get it" in his area more than most.

Booker - I didn't even read your friggin post until after you posted this lambasting me. I didn't "read between the lines", as I'd not even read the lines themselves. I didn't draw any conclusions, false or otherwise, from my having not read your post.

PS - even now AFTER reading your post, I fail to see how my post could possibly have been misconstrued as being directed at you. Your post is the OPPOSITE of what I was referring to. I eagerly (and perhaps infinitely) await your retraction or apology.

PPS - tell Carly Simon I said hi.

........and if he doesn't apologize, TOSS HIM!!!!!!!!!!

just adding a little humor here.....

I think that the humor had already been added. Look below:

Three ejections in three years for Slowpitch games. None for FP games.

One of the ejections resulted in a forfeit. He wouldn't leave the park.

Let's see...the ol' ejection list...this is for the Seattle area only.

1. My very first school ball game as part of the Seattle association. Girl gets backward K for third out. Coach is walking from 3B coaching box to the dugout. Stops in the circle and say loud enough for all in the park to hear, "That call was f'n ridiculous." He gets to go warm up the bus.

And of course next thing I hear from a couple peers, "Why did you run a coach in a JV game? blah blah blah..." After I explained, everything was ok.

2. another girl gets a backward K for third out. she turns and asks, "Are you f'n kidding me." I don't say a word to her, but catcher tells her to swing the bat next time. Intercept coach on the way across the field and ask her if she has a replacement for #5. She says yes and asks why. I tell her why, tell her 5 is ejected, she gives me the sub. Nextinning coach comes out laughing. "I asked her if she cursed the umpire," coach says. "She tells me no. I asked her what she told you, and she tells me verbatim what you told me. I told her, 'That word is a curse word.' She gives me this dumb, vacant stare."

3. A wonderful obstruction call on an errant throw at third. Coach comes out, "You're a bullspit umpire and that was a bullspit call." Coach has to miss the rest of a great game, her team came back, game went snowman, and coach missed the whole thing.

IMHO, I probably haven't extended the invitation to enough people to leave the premises, and I think that's true for many others. Sometimes we (me included)are far too tolerant. I think I have good game management skills, and so do many others, but game management CAN include ejections (and disqualifications in NFHS). Just because you jack someone when they have earned it doesn't make one a bad umpire.

Here are my totals:

ASA (13 years) 10 coaches, 3 fans, 2 players
NFHS (2 years) 0 ejections, 0 restriction
NCAA (1st year) 0

Most of the coaches I helped exit the game were between years 2-4. (yes, I was a little trigger happy back then). The three fans became beligerant after a call at home plate that didn't go their way, and yes, the coach went with them. The two players were ejected in the same game for the same thing: deliberately crashing into the catcher. It was an easy call. The second ejection caused a forfeit as there were no other subs.

Forgot one
 

Forgot about my fan. It was at a Western National. Fan was unhappy about a call my partner made on the bases. He says, "I know you guys came here in that gray car (my umpmobile). I'll be waiting for you after the game." He went away via the UIC's golf cart and was dis-invited from remainder of tournament. 'Twas a shame, cuz his daughter's team fought through the loser's bracket and got to the finals.

Thank God for UIC's (in this case, Dan Duffy) who will support their umpires 100%.

Re: Forgot one
 

You forgot about the USC you and I had last year for the runner crashing into F2....wasn't a true "ejection" per se, but she did finish the game on the bench.

I dont keep track........
 

I primarily do Mens Slow Pitch in Park leagues. Tossing the coach usually doesnt happen to often. However, I can usually count on an a couple ejections each year for players.

The one I remember the most was an ejection after the very first pitch of the game. Batter watches a real good pitch come through his strike zone and it lands about an inch off the outside of the plate. I call it a strike, because it came through his strike zone. He puts the ball in the mark and says "See where it landed?" I said "Sir, it crossed the plate through your strike zone. Lets play." Pitcher is getting ready to pitch the ball and the batter looks back at me and says "What a F'd up call that was." I immediately called TIME! and asked him to vacate the premises. Coach comes out and ask what happened. I told him and the coach looks at his teammate and tells him to go home.

I dont know about everyone else, but I just dont put up with a lot of crap. Doing Adult Rec leagues seems a bit different than having the "organized" Manager in HS and college situation. Many of the players try to get away with a lot of stuff and I just wont let them.

I usually toss 3 to 4 players each year. The most common reason is because they cant leave the beer in the cooler until the game is done.

Re: Re: Forgot one
 

Yes I did, and thanks for the reminder. Actually it was F1 covering the plate. She was a sneaky little snot, too...and a rather vicious kidney puncher. I wonder if we would have seen the punch had she been left-handed. She threw it right-handed because the glove was on her left hand. If she was a lefty, chances are neither of us would have seen it but would have been wondering why the runner was writhing on the ground.

Been umpiring various organizations for 18 years. I really don't know, because I've never felt is a badge of honor nor of shame, so I haven't been counting. It's just part of our job.

NFHS - - maybe two in last 10 years. Only one I remember was for a coach saying "blah, blah, blah... and if you don't like it you can throw my a$$ out."

Adult SP - coaches and players, perhaps thre or four a year when I was doing that.

Church SP - too often to count, but not nearly enough.

Kids FP - perhaps one every three or four years.

Re: Re: Re: Forgot one
 

That's right. I was watching the BR slide into 3B, so I caught the tail end of the play - the part where you're calling "Dead Ball". I look over to HP and R1 is on the ground holding her back...you're standing there telling the coach that his F1 is now DQ'd... and I'm thinking "Man, I just missed the ESPN highlight of the day..."

I'm starting my 10 year this spring. I've had 14 coaches that had to hear how the game ended.

4 of them apologized repeatedly for it the rest of the season. They admit they just lost control and " That's not like me."

*** 6 were verbally assaulting my partner to the point I got tired of listening to it and the girls didn't need to hear anymore. Neither did I.

*** 5 for cussing in front of the girls, fans and everyone else in the park.

*** 3 for various USC reasons.

While I don't take a lot of abuse, I'll allow some. When it's time for the coach to leave the park, it's because I realize I've losing control of the game and this is my last ditch effort to regain it. I definitely don't go looking for the next ejection.

This is a sad commentary

I only do Adult SP and rarely have to eject anyone. I think that the main reason is most of the leagues around here have not only a casual profanity rule (which I know some don't like) but also the rule that if a player is ejected then they miss one or two more games. A few leagues even have the ejection reviewed and if they feel warranted will kick the player out for more games. In fact last year I only ejected one player and that was for swearing at his own teammates. He was playing SS and yelling at his OF, I started to walk into the infield, the manager playing Pitcher asked me to throw him out so he didn't have to. :)

Booker227... "... two grandparents for swearing at me in the presence of the players,..."
You tossed the coaches for what the fans did???

I think he tossed the GRANDPARENTS, even if the thread had really only asked about coaches.

SC Ump
You are tough on the churches.

It is kind of a shame that church leagues tend to be the one's you would least expect the trouble and yet that's where it comes from. I played church league ball in SC and remember well how it can be. The worst was when I was playing in VA though and the guys on my church team were the worst in the league. They got away with a ton of stuff

Not a coach as per the original question, but I just had my first ejection - a catcher no less. And I thought the PUs and F2s were supposed to work together.

This one had been all over me the whole game, a 16 Gold Championship game in a weekend tourny a couple of weeks ago. Up until this happened I was letting her comments role off like water on a duck. Then the obstruction at home happens, runner was able to not get tagged, backed up, and get in a run-down. My partner (SRW) and I get that squared away (I won't go into the mistake that we made on the award, which actually favored the obstructing team). F2, and the coach have a major problem with the OB call. She's chirping the whole time as the next 2 pitches come in (both strikes). Runners on 1st and 3rd, and F2 tells me (very sarcastically) to puh-lease watch the runners leaving early. I quietly tell her that I have a partner out there, and that if she wants me to keep calling the strikes that her pitcher is throwing, I can't possible keep my eyes on both runners. To that I get something like, "that's f-ing B.S. Bye bye F2. Coach comes out inquiring. He's still hot about the OB call. When I tell about the F-bomb, he promptly turns to his fans and asked, "did you guys hear her say anything?" Some in my group have said that he should have been gone at that point. I don't take any pride in running anyone from a game (coaches, fans, and especially players). As a result, I've probably taken more than my share of abuse. This game was quickly getting out of hand, and I just couldn't give the catcher any more rope. I do feel some pride in how my partner and I handled the coach during the ensuing discussion.

Bottom-line 3yrs umpiring, 1 player gone.

The first adult ball team I ever played on was a small town church team. It was great, we had a blast and I honestly can't ever remember an argument.

Perhaps there is some other dynamic in larger churches in larger cities. Though I'm no longer a church goer, perhaps I still expect a higher standard from the folks that respresent those institutions.

In a high school tournament this past week-end, we called a penalty strike for a slap hitter wiping out the front line of the batters box. (New NFHS rule.) It was called against the local private religious school. In a fairly quiet discussion, the coach told my partner that it was a "bullshìt call".

I agree with my grandma's words, "churches are for sinners, not just saints." Maybe these are just the types of instances that stand out the most.

Knock it off!

Okay, mom.

A few thoughts here - first, no coach ejections in SB (2 in BB) - I have ejected scorekeepers and a parent or two and a player but never a coach.

Second, someone said earlier that they had none in NFHS because most know the rules - would you send them to WV because very few know the rules!

A few thoughts here - first, no coach ejections in SB (2 in BB) - I have ejected scorekeepers and a parent or two and a player but never a coach.

When I need parents to leave the area I usually have the AD, tournament director, tournament UIC or if none of them are around then I have the coach ask the parent/s to leave.

Ahhhh yes, but it's still YOU having the coach have them leave - regardless of the mechanism, you ejected them.

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000
When I need parents to leave the area I usually have the AD, tournament director, tournament UIC or if none of them are around then I have the coach ask the parent/s to leave.


Ahhhh yes, but it's still YOU having the coach have them leave - regardless of the mechanism, you ejected them.
__________________
Larry Ledbetter

Larry,

Abosolutly I ejected them. You may want to check with your umpiring association UIC and find out how s/he prefers you ejecting fans. My association UIC intstructs that if it's not on the field, let the AD, tournament director, tournament UIC or if none of them are around then have the coach remove fans from the area.

Michael-

I understand that. I always go through proper channels. I was simply responding to the question. I have tossed parents - but I have always gone through the proper channels. I didn't think this thread was meant to be that heavy so I left out some details like "calling down the tournament director". Sorry, I'll do better next time.

Michael-

I understand that. I always go through proper channels. I was simply responding to the question. I have tossed parents - but I have always gone through the proper channels. I didn't think this thread was meant to be that heavy so I left out some details like "calling down the tournament director". Sorry, I'll do better next time.
__________________
Larry Ledbetter

Larry,

Thanks for the response. I included the other options for removing a disruptive fan/s for the newer umpires and as a reminder for the veterans that there are alternatives.