NCAA BOO effect

[CecilOne]

The NCAA book does not seem to specify the status of outs made as a result of the incorrect batter batting the ball, etc.
Where in the book is that covered or what is the rule?

[greymule]

NCAA is not like Fed, which gives the defense any outs made on the play (except for an out on the illegal batter), or ASA, which gives the defense all outs made as a result of the improper batter's at bat.

Abel on 1B, no outs. Charles bats instead of Baker and grounds into a double play. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals to the umpire.

ASA: The double play stands. Baker is out for failing to bat in the proper order. Three outs. Daniels leads off the next inning.

Fed: Abel's out at 2B counts. Baker is out for failing to bat in the proper order. Two outs. Charles bats again.

NCAA (and NSA): Baker is out for failing to bat in the proper order. Abel is returned to 1B. Charles bats again. Under these codes, the defense would be better off not appealing.

[CecilOne]

Not questioning or disagreeing, but is that somewhere in the NCAA book that I can quote?

[greymule]

Well, nowhere does it say, "Unlike ASA or Fed," but on page 83 and pages 131-132, the same text appears. Also see Appendix B on page 219. Nothing about any outs standing. It appears that NCAA's BOO rule is exactly like OBR's, so there's nothing unusual about it.

In the appendix, there's one part I'm wondering about:

If the offending team corrects its own mistake (offense or defense), it says "not recommended but if coach insists, same penalty as if reported by opponent."

Now exactly what this means, I don't know. However, it appears to say that the offensive coach can report BOO to the umpire and demand the penalty.

But unlike ASA, in which the penalty always hurts the team at bat if BOO is appealed, in NCAA the offense could actually benefit from the penalty.

Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, Daniels bats instead of Charles and hits into a triple play. Offensive coach comes out and says, "Hey, Blue, Charles was supposed to bat. Enforce the penalty."

In NCAA, Charles is out. Abel and Baker return, and Daniels bats again with 1 out. The offense benefits from the appeal.

Since this is preposterous, it can't be right. But what is that appendix referring to?



[Edited by greymule on Mar 4th, 2006 at 10:38 PM]

[Blu_IN]

NSA has changed its rules concerning batting out of order this year.

[greymule]

NSA has changed its rules concerning batting out of order this year.

My most recent NSA book is 2004. What's the rule in NSA now?

[Blu_IN]

You can find the rule changes for NSA at the following link.

http://www.playnsa.com/modules.php?n...showpage&pid=7

It is my understanding that they have moved to a penalty similar to that currently used by ASA.

EX.

R1. B1 hits a grounder to F6. F6 to F4 for the first out, and the throw to first is late. The offense appeals BOO. The penalty will now include the additional out at second base plus the out at first for the BOO.

Previously, this would have been ruled as B1 out, R1 returns to first base.

Z

[greymule]

Yes, NSA did change their rule. It's apparently now in line with ASA.

In your situation, the out at 2B would stand, but there would be no out at 1B on the BOO. The batter who failed to bat in the proper order would be out. If the BR was in fact put out at 1B, then with the BOO there would be 3 outs.

[CelticNHBlue]

If the offending team corrects its own mistake (offense or defense), it says "not recommended but if coach insists, same penalty as if reported by opponent."

greymule-

I would think that the intent of this comment is to insure that the offense can not BOO and then, if successful, race to PU and report the instance without penalty. I agree that this gives the offense an oportunity to benefit by BOO which is wrong but is what we have at this time.

[Blu_IN]

I am not sure if I am ready to accept the three out situation. I will definately have to clarify whether that would be the case. The NSA casebook situation for this new rule is similar to the one I outlined earlier.

[greymule]

NSA's new wording is very similar to ASA's pre-1999 wording, with the added stipulation, practically word for word from ASA, that any out made prior to the discovery of the infraction remains an out. This leads me believe that NSA has adopted ASA's rule, which allows all outs to stand, even an out on the batter. This is unlike Fed, which lets all outs stand except an out on the batter, and NCAA, which follows OBR.

It is interesting to follow ASA's changes. In 1998, ASA apparently mirrored OBR and did not allow the out on the batter. In 1999, they changed their rule to say that "any runner who is put out prior to the discovery of the infraction remains out. Then in 2000 they changed to "any out . . . remains an out." Now it's "all outs stand."