Interesting discussion on the eteamz coach's board...

NCAA rules (AZ v TX game).

Assume (to fill in the scenario):

Batter hits a long fly ball that is clearly going over the temporary fence. Fielder leaps after the fly ball, knocking over the section of the fence to the right of the section the ball is clearing. With her entire body behind the fence, but in the air, she catches the ball.

Is this a catch or a home run?

http://www.sdlightning.org/college/az1.jpg

The ruling of the game umpires was home run.

Also, comments on ASA, NFHS, AFA, whatever...

I thought (think) that as long as the fielder does not touch the "ground", a catch is legal. "Ground" meaning fixed parts of the environment outside the fence, or did they judge the spectators to be "stands" and she touched them before the catch?

Or, a ground rule ... ?

I dont think Ild make a call til her part of the play was over.
She looks air-born. I cant tell from this shot alone. If this is all I had, its an out.

I think I'd be going with no catch, agreeing with the call that was made. NCAA Rule 1, Section 22 defines what is a catch and what is not a catch. Looking at the picture, that fence is knocked over and on the ground - the field has been extended. Looks like the fielder went through the fence as opposed to going over it.

I'll ask you guys this and let you revise your answers if necessary...

Where did the fielder land? And what would you call if a player made a catch and landed in the stands?

I wasn't there; a number of the posters on the other board at least saw it on TV, but assume the following (which I believe to be what actually happened):

The fielder's feet left the ground in live ball territory.

She crashed into the fence section, knocking it down, but not touching anything herself other than the fence while the fence was still upright.

She caught the ball in flight while she was fully airborne and fully over DBT.

She did not touch anything in DBT until she came down with the ball in her glove.

She maintained control of the ball after coming down.

I attended the NCAA D-III world series a few years ago and had a very similar situation. An outfielder ran thru the same type of temporary fence and made the catch standing about 5 feet beyond the fence line. Ruling was a Homerun.

Couple of thoughts here, If I were a coach I would sure want this girl in my outfield. What effort to make this catch!!

Great Photo but I'm wondering about those fans sitting behind the brick wall. They all seem a little "stiff".

david

I have an additional question.

Other than the fan trying to kick the player in the stomach, what are all of the fans in the background looking at?!?!?! (And the photo from the brick fence up looks doctored, doesn't it?)

(And the photo from the brick fence up looks doctored, doesn't it?)

That's what I meant by a little "Stiff"

David

Guess you typed that as I was sending the other one in. :)

The same fans were in the second photo showing the player after the catch. I think it was some kind of backdrop.

Here is the link to the website that has the photos:

Az pics

NCAA Rule 1-22.b states that "A fielder who falls over or through a fence AFTER making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

Rule 2-10.b adds that a catch shall NOT be credited if "(2) The fielder is standing on the fence as it is lying on the ground when she contacts the ball."

Okay, so while still not crystal clear, I conclude that if it is a catch only if made before falling over or through the fence, it is NOT a catch if it is made after running through the fence. And, that the fence down does NOT expand the playing field (another rules difference from ASA). My reading is that she must have contact with the ball before collapsing the fence; which did not happen, as best I can tell from the pics.

Home run

I think if you're standing on a knocked-down fence, you can still make a legal catch. So I'd give her the catch unless her foot had touched beyond the knocked-down fence. But if she knocked the fence down and didn't step past it till the ball was in her glove, it's an out.

However, from this picture you can't tell for sure what happened, so it's HTBT.

In the stands, the guy in the second row second from the left was on "America's Most Wanted" last night.

Now think about this for a minute. Lgoc sez that If you are standing on a knocked down fence, you have extended the field.

The NCAA defines this situation on page 19 and states that it is not a catch.
The 2005 ASA book states on page 142 that standing on a fence that is laying on the ground is OK, it's a catch & out.
Fed sez that it's OK to stand on the fence as long as the fence is not horizontal. There's a case book play - 2.10.5 Situation A.

So, NCAA rules for this play, homerun.
Fed rules for this play, homerun.
ASA rules for this play, catch & out since she caught it before hitting the ground.
Gotta see if Bennett has this difference in his rules differences.

Speaking ASA

This is a catch as long as the fielder retained possession of the ball when hitting the ground. At that point, it is also a dead ball unless the fielder was laying on top of the fence and never touched the ground outside the field of play. If that were the case, live ball.

out

Alpha - just "out"?

In NCAA rules this is a home run. How do you have an out?

I.S.F. 2006 Rules
 

Rule 1 - Sec. 15. CATCH.
A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with his hand(s) or glove.
A. (...)
B.(...)
C. The fielder’s feet must be:
1) When moving toward the out-of-play line, the feet must either: (a) be within the playing area, (b) touching the ‘out-of-play’ line or(c) both feet in the air after leaving the playing area, in order to have a valid catch.
2) A player, who is in dead ball territory and returns to the playing area, must have both feet touching the playable area. In order to have a legally caught ball.

As others have said previously, this is really a HTBT call. However, with the information given and going strictly by NCAA code, this is a homerun.

Feet left ground in fair territory - the rest is a wash in sitch, other runners unknown. Read Dakotas post.

You're new here, I think... so you're getting a little benefit of the doubt. But if you're going to state a case that is contrary to the rules, at least back it up with the rule you are misinterpreting to get to your ruling.

In NCAA, by definition, this is a home run.

Page 16 - For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure posession of the ball before ... falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over ... the fence AFTER making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

Page 18 - Dead-ball territory - That area beyond any real playing field boundary such as a fence...

Page 143 - The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put out when a fair batted fly ball ... leaves the playing field in fair territory without touching the ground or going through the fence.

If you disagree, what rule are you using to get there.

[Edited by mcrowder on Mar 3rd, 2006 at 11:04 AM]

Heck, yeah. He don't need no stinking rules.

When I saw the photo, my "call" was OUT, but then I was basing that on ASA, not NCAA. I did ask for other-than-NCAA interpretations at the bottom of the OP.

If the fielder became airborne while her feet were within live ball territory, and if she held onto the ball after crashing back to earth, this is a catch in ASA.

What is interesting about this play (as "filled in" by me) is that the rule book(s) do not explicitly address the situation of a player going airborne while in LBT, but not making contact with the ball / making the catch until fully within DBT (but still airborne).

Clearly, she is behind the fence at the point of the photo. If that is the point of contact with the ball / catch, then it becomes interesting.

She did not make the catch and then leave the field.

When she comes down she will NOT be on top of a collapsed temporary fense.

It hit upon some of the edges of the rules.

I think that we are getting hung up on the collapsed fence and I am not sure that it enters into the play. In most codes we are going to credit a catch made in the air, regardless of the location of the ball or body at time of the catch as long as the feet last touched live ball territory before becoming airborne.

If that was a solid fence and the fielder simply leaped over it and caught the ball on the other side of the fence before landing, it would be a legal catch.

The single picture does not tell us when the ball was caught. Possible the fielder was still in contact with the fence when she caught the ball. But we do know that the fence is down and the player is still in the air, thus she did not make a catch while in contact with a temporary fence that was on the ground or horizontal. Thus I believe that it should be a catch in any code. Only when the catch is made while the player is in contact with a horizontal fence do we get a different answer in different code: catch in ASA, no catch in NFHS and NCAA.

I say that it was ruled wrong in the game; it should have been a catch.

WMB

BTW – I suspect the rules makers were thinking of plastic netting when they wrote the rules on collapsible fencing. For that, the weight of the player must be on the fence for it to reach a horizontal position. If the player is laying or standing of that fence and it is less than flat it is a catch. If flat, then no catch in NFHS and NCAA.

Why arent you attacking Irish the same way. If I said all I officiate is ASA, would that help?
Not to throw you under the bus (Irish), but thats what I see in the pic. Heck with the benefit of the doubt or the ruling that was called, that wasnt the question. I answered the the question, out, and said why I felt that way. Thanks for siting all the rules, thats why its an out.

WMB - in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch.

Interestingly, in a Torii Hunteresque homer-save play in NCAA, by RULE, it is not a catch if the ball has already crossed the boundary... but it's just so impossible to see this for sure that custom has you ruling a homer on this when the player comes back down in live ball territory.

ASA, I too have an out in all circumstances as long as she's not already contacted DBT before the catch.

YES!

That's why Mike starts most of his responses with "Speaking ASA..."

All you said was "out" without clarifying at all. The OP mentioned multiple rulesets.

And I didn't think I was attacking you in THIS thread! ;) I thought I was giving you the benefit of the doubt as a newby, and asking you to clarify your response (which you initially did not). It was not meant as an attack at all.

And you are worried about my offenses.

WMB - in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch

mcrowder - please take this a little further. All I have is my reading of the catch definition and I don't see that interpretation.

Both the NCAA and NFHS rules are identical: "For a legal catch a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area." The rule does not define where the ball is at; only where the fielder ends.

Stepping or touching DBT is not a problem; the question is if the fielder leaps in the air, when is she falling into DBT?

If the body is partially over DBT but the hand (with the glove) makes the catch in live ball area and the body lands in DBT is that a catch?

If the body is partially over LBT, but the catching hand is over DBT, and the body lands in DBT, is that not a catch?

Note also that both NFHS and NCAA then say "A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch.” Again, the book does not define where the ball was at the time of catch, only where the fielder ended.

WMB

<b>in NCAA, even with a real fence - whether homer or in foul territory, if the player leaps from the playing field, catches it over DBT, and lands in DBT, it is not a catch.</b>

I can't find this in the NCAA book. Where is it?

Page 16 - For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure posession of the ball before ... falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over ... the fence AFTER making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

It says before falling into... not before contacting.

Page 18 - Dead-ball territory - That area beyond any real playing field boundary such as a fence...

Page 143 - The batter is awarded home plate with no liability to be put out when a fair batted fly ball ... leaves the playing field in fair territory without touching the ground or going through the fence.

<b>it is not a catch if the ball has already crossed the boundary</b>

Where is this in the NCAA book?

And I'm having a hard time understanding the following exchange:

<b>If the body is partially over LBT, but the catching hand is over DBT, and the body lands in DBT, is that not a catch?

Correct.</b>

In a lifetime of playing ball, I have never heard anyone contend that a player who jumps into the air from fair territory, catches the ball partly or even completely over DBT, falls into DBT, and holds onto the ball has not made a legal catch.

If breaking some sort of "plane of the fence" applied, then a player couldn't reach over the fence to catch a ball in the air--something that is done all the time.

Yea... but you're referring to MLB, which is under OBR. the rule is worded completely differently. It's worded differently in ASA too. Strangely, NCAA baseball is worded more similarly with OBR, as if FED baseball.

But talking NCAA or FED Softball Rules, a ball has to be caught within the playing field, over LBT, to be an out. I've posted the relevant definitions.

This exact conversation dominated about an hour of a clinic I attended with the SWAC umpires a couple of years ago.

<b>But talking NCAA or FED Softball Rules, a ball has to be caught within the playing field, over LBT, to be an out.</b>

Well, I won't contradict you since you seem to have done some investigation in this area. But this would mean that F3 couldn't make a legal catch of a foul pop by standing at the fence and reaching over. I do NCAA and have never heard of this. Where is it in the NCAA book? It sure isn't under "catch."

Well, that sitch is slightly different. I (and the clinicians that day) admit that the rulebook is not 100% clear in its definitions. By the definitions listed above, if the player leans into DBT to catch a ball falls, and contacts DBT, it's pretty easy to justify calling this not a catch.

The scenario you describe does not fit the definition of a catch, and also doesn't fit the definition of a dead ball (in the case of foul ball territory.) It's grey area. One of those "rule on something not written in the rules" things that have never been fixed. Even the clinician most in favor of the Torii Hunter homer-saving catch being a homer (which, technically in NCAA rules, IS a homer, despite "custom") admitted that since the rules support nothing, and custom dictates an out, we should call this an out.

In case you missed earlier, I did mention that even though the homer-saving catch is technically a homer (see the part I posted about a 4-base award) - the consensus was that since it would be nearly impossible to be POSITIVE the ball was not initially contacted over LBT on a home run (maybe with a 6 man crew, a very high fly, and a very fast URF or ULF), the likely call is an out.

It's only the case where the player lands in DBT that it is CLEAR that we don't have a catch, by the definitions we are given.

The true culprit here is the definitions themselves not covering every possibility. Not the first time ever on that. :)

NCAA book

For a legal catch:

a. A fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area.

[My note: This would lead me to believe that she can in fact contact DBT after a catch.]

b. A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch.

Where is there anything in the NCAA book to indicate or even hint that the fielder cannot reach over DBT to make a catch?

It's the "Falling into a dead-ball area" part. The fielder must catch it before falling into a dead ball area... which includes anything on the other side of the fence. If the fielder is airborne, she is falling. If she's falling into DBT, she must have possession before crossing into DBT.

If she falls over or through the fence AFTER making the catch, it's a catch. AFTER being the important word. To make the catch, she has to secure possession BEFORE falling over the fence or falling into DBT. Note that it doesn't say she must make the catch before CONTACTING DBT... it says before she falls over, through, or into DBT.

Regarding a foul ball, no where if she's not airborne. The one clinician that insisted this was not a catch was, in the majority's opinion, leaning far too heavily on the "Falling into DBT" part. Regarding a home run, one of the definitions above state that once the ball crosses into DBT over the home run fence, it's a 4-base award. The catch in this case happens after the ball has already become a home run.

Well, yeah, ASA does.

Rule 1 Catch/No Catch

CATCH

A. A catch is a legally caught ball, which occurs when the field catches a batted, pitched or thrown ball with the hand(s) or glove/mitt.

3. The fielder's feet must be within the field of play, touching the "out of play" line or in the air after leaving live ball territory in order to have a valid catch.

I can see that this is hinging on how "before falling into dead ball territory" is defined. I believe that the rulesmakers intended this to mean "before the airborne player touches DBT." To interpret "falling" in this context as indicating the technical act of dropping toward the center of the earth as a result of the force of gravity is absurd.

It says "falling <i>into</i> a dead-ball area," not "falling <i>toward</i> a dead-ball area"! The air over DBT is not DBT.

Maybe "before having fallen into dead-ball territory" would be better.

I agree.