aplf

[alphaump]

After all players left the field, is there a sitch where you would reverse a bad call, if properly appealed; and does all mean all?

[mcrowder]

You really need to be more specific with your terms on a question like this...

An appeal is a very specific thing, and is not allowed after certain fielders leave the field (which fielders varies by ruleset).

A manager asking us to get help on a call is NOT an appeal. If this is what you meant by the question, players leaving the field is immaterial. Obviously, if another pitch is thrown, it's too late to fix anything. But even if everyone had left the field and the other team was warming up in the field, if it was determined (via whatever vehicle) that something was misadministered, we have the obligation to fix it, even if we look awful doing it.

Worst one I have seen was a game where I was evaluating a pair of umpires. After a lot of runs and crazy plays, defense finally records it's 2nd out. They leave the field. Offense leaves the field. Umpires do their mid-inning thing (which ... for this team was to go gab with the fans/hot-moms on the 1B side... but that's another story!). Pitcher warms up. There is some sort of hubbub in the ex-offense's dugout, but I'm not close enough to hear it. Batter settles in, and just before pitcher gets ready to go her coach tells her to wait and he starts yelling time over and over.

After the umpires discussed with each other and the scorekeeper (a neutral person in our area), they determined they'd made a mistake, and reset it all back up with 2 outs.

Next batter dribbled to the pitcher. VERY anti-climactic.

[JEL]

Technically a bad call can not be appealed. A ruling where an appeal is allowed , batting out of order, illegal sub etc. is a moot point once all players have left the field.

For a call which is questioned, and you are asked to confer with your partner, would I reverse a bad call? Yes I would (if I ever made one ).

Scorekeeping errors can be corrected this way , but they are also not appealls.

See thread titled "Fix this one" for more.

[Steve M]

Your situation can't happen. If all players have left the field of play, there's nobody there to make an appeal. Read your book again - who is it that can make an appeal and when can they make it?

[mcrowder]

Steve - did you even read the question?

I believe I mentioned what you did on actual appeals.

But he is not really talking about an appeal - he says "a sitch where you would reverse a bad call". A "bad call" is not an "appeal". And YES, you can still fix a bad call if you realize you are in error, so long as play has not continued yet.

[alphaump]

Originally posted by JEL
Technically a bad call can not be appealed.

What? There are plenty of posts here where coach asks for help from officials partner that apply. OK, maybe not technally an appeal, but lets not miss the point. You guys were discussing this on another post where BU called R1 out at 1st for out 3 and didnt notice that the ball was dropped until all the players left the field and the DC asked for help from partner and PU agreed the ball was dropped.
Thats just one example of the point.
Back to the original sitch now.

[Steve M]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Steve - did you even read the question?

I believe I mentioned what you did on actual appeals.

But he is not really talking about an appeal - he says "a sitch where you would reverse a bad call". A "bad call" is not an "appeal". And YES, you can still fix a bad call if you realize you are in error, so long as play has not continued yet.

MC,
I think we're OK with what each is saying. And look at the time stamps - you & JEL hit enter just a couple minutes before I did. When I'd read the post, nobody had replied. Timing is everything, once again. When Alph specifically said "properly appealed" - I go to an appeal play. Those are like magic words. The answer I gave was correct - for the question I read, but not for what now appears to have been meant.

Now, when asked to check with a partner because a coach thinks I did not see something critical - pulled foot, dropped ball, ... - sure, I'll go just about every time. Unless it's college ball, then I'll go every time.

[Edited by Steve M on Mar 1st, 2006 at 08:48 PM]

[Dakota]

Originally posted by JEL
Technically a bad call can not be appealed.

Originally posted by alphaump
What? There are plenty of posts here where coach asks for help from officials partner that apply. OK, maybe not technally an appeal,...

I think he said that...

One thing about alot of us here... we use the "technically correct" terminology instead of "coach speak" or "player speak" and some of us are pretty picky about it. It keeps us from confusing each other and spending the first dozen posts in a thread going back and forth on what was meant!

In the rule book, an appeal is a very specific thing that must be made properly.

Being asked to go to your partner for help is not an appeal, even though coaches and players call it that.

[SC Ump]

There are three things that are too often used interchangably, when really they are quite different:

> protest - procedure from coach as to the misapplication of a rule by an official and could require game to be replayed from a certain point.

> appeal - procedure (verbal or physical) from one team in regards to a rule violation by the opposing team, like missing a base or leaving too soon on a fly ball.

> request for help - when a coach or other player asked an umpire to re-evaluate his call by getting help from his partner, like a checked swing.

I agree with those that think we as a board should be more specific in our used of this verbiage.

[alphaump]

Originally posted by SC Ump


I agree with those that think we as a board should be more specific in our used of this verbiage.

Holy crap, I better be a little more careful with specifics.
The thing I am most interested in is the "all player left the field" part. Even if play hadnt continued yet,(between innings) where is the line drawn in the sand about that?
If they left the field because of intitial 3rd call, would you bring them back to get it right?

[Edited by alphaump on Mar 2nd, 2006 at 03:42 PM]

[JEL]

alphaump'

Yes specifics can be important in answering here, as well as calling games.

Your original question could be taken to mean Do you allow an appeal after all players (and I mean all) have left the field?

The answer to that would need a clarifier, and that would be Yes, but...this would mean all the defense. Offensive personell could still be on the field, so all is not all.

It can also be taken as, Do you allow an appeal of a bad call? The answer there of course is No. Judgement calls can not be appealed.

It can also be taken to mean, (as I believe was your intent), If a coach asks you to confer with you partner, would you do so, and reverse your call even after all players have left the field? Well thats what I answered. It (the answer) is still there. I even reffered you to the discussion which you later reffered to.

Nomenclature IS important on this board, as well as in the game.

Within the space of a few seconds a player can be a...

Player on the bench,
On deck batter'
Batter,
Batter Runner,
Runner,
Runner who has scored,
Retired Runner,
and maybe a couple more.

With different rules applying to each. Specifics covering a BR can be different from a R, and so forth. Coaches, players and fans don't always understand these differences, and it can cause some confusion.

[booker227]

Yes, you can, before the next pitch.

[Dakota]

alphaump,

You came on this board worried about flame wars, etc. Yet, you proceed with considerable insensitivity.

IOW, I find your graphic in this thread absolutely, utterly offensive.

[mcrowder]

Yes, Alpha. I think I already answered that, and others agreed.

If what you are talking about is a simple reversal of an erroneous call or ruling, there is no time limit other than the continuation of the game. I even gave an example of about the longest delay possible.

And yes, if you are an umpire, you should be very aware of the difference between a protest, an appeal, and a simple request for help - the rules surrounding them are entirely different. Might want to read up on that if you have a chance.

PS - I agree with Dakota, and I'm not even religious.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by Dakota

IOW, I find your graphic in this thread absolutely, utterly offensive.

Thank you. So do I.