fast or slow

[alphaump]

Ive officiated Asa slow pitch only, but have thought about fast pitch since recently moving to an area that has a very active fast pitch community.
Obvious differences; for the guys that have done or are doing both, what helps make the decision? Do the rules run together too much or are thy too hard to differenciate? Not that that would deter me, I luv a challenge, just not at others expense.

[Justme]

Originally posted by alphaump
Ive officiated Asa slow pitch only, but have thought about fast pitch since recently moving to an area that has a very active fast pitch community.
Obvious differences; for the guys that have done or are doing both, what helps make the decision? Do the rules run together too much or are thy too hard to differenciate? Not that that would deter me, I luv a challenge, just not at others expense.

I've recently started working both ASA slow/fast pitch. There are many differences in the rules...get a copy of the Official Rules of Softball Umpire Edition and study....attend clinics...talk with the vet umpires, that's what I'm doing to prepare myself.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by alphaump
...for the guys that have done or are doing both, what helps make the decision?

I used to work both SP and FP, but in recent years (last 8 or so), have worked strictly FP. The reason? I enjoy the game more, plain and simply.

As for the rules, yes, there are a lot of differences in the rules governing both SP and FP. They are not difficult to learn, however.

[greymule]

I like FP better and hope soon to be doing it and modified exclusively. FP pays far more, too.

I have done SP for a long time and find that even the veteran ballplayers--even guys I played with and against decades ago--know very little about the rules. To them, SP means crush the ball and watch it disappear. The intricacies of the rules are of no interest whatsoever. I would bet that not 1 player in 100 would know how to rule on a fair batted ball that hit a runner in contact with a base. Third out on appeal for failure to tag up at 1B? Force play and nullify all runs. Everybody knows that. Most of them think it's "2 from the outfield, 1 from the infield" or "1 plus 1." That kind of stuff.

Recently in a men's SP tournament I had a batter hit a long fly to center field, and he observed the SP custom of standing in the box and admiring the flight of the ball. When he saw that it wasn't going to go out, he started back to his (3B) dugout. When he was halfway, F8 dropped the ball at the fence. BR, unaware of the sitation, had to be told by his teammates to run. So he then ran directly across the infield to 1B.

Not a single player on the defense could believe that I didn't call BR out either for "giving himself up" or for being "out of the baseline." One guy even "quoted" the rule book to me: "If he takes one step toward the bench--one step,Blue!--he's automatically out." (Protest denied.)

At another tourney five or so years ago, while waiting for my scheduled game, I watched two teams loaded with musclemen who traveled the country with teams that would routinely hit 120 or so home runs over a weekend. In other words, this was not a co-ed SP picnic game in which you can call anything and nobody knows or cares. This play occurred: Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 1 out. Charles hit a grounder (!) to F6. F6 tried to tag Abel, but Abel retreated toward 2B. The BU called Abel out for retreating on the basepath. F6 then threw to F4 for the force on Baker as Abel ran to 3B. Even though Abel had been called out, they played on him and threw the ball away since F5 wasn't paying attention. Abel ran home, but it was ruled a double play. Naturally, the offense argued the call, but not about the fact that Abel had every right to retreat. They argued that the ball should have been dead as soon as Abel was called out.

Last year, I had to explain to a slugger who over 30 years has played literally thousands of high-level ASA games that "6 to 12" refers to distance from the ground, not from the point of release. I also had a veteran hero tell me that I missed a "balk" the pitcher committed.

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I have seen a lot of games here in central NJ (which at least at one time was a real hotbed of SP activity), and I can testify that many veteran SP umps don't know the rules, either. I've seen many a preposterous ruling that engendered not a peep from either team.

FP is a different story in my experience, because many coaches at least study the rules, even if they don't interpret them correctly, and teach their players to take advantage by pushing the limits. So, at least around here, while a guy who played SP and knows something about the game can probably get away with umpiring, it would not be possible to bluff your way in a FP game. And high-level girls' travel teams or college, forget it. You better know what you're doing.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
I like FP better and hope soon to be doing it and modified exclusively. FP pays far more, too.

Hmmmm....starting to see more of a green than blue.

I have done SP for a long time and find that even the veteran ballplayers--even guys I played with and against decades ago--know very little about the rules. To them, SP means crush the ball and watch it disappear. The intricacies of the rules are of no interest whatsoever. I would bet that not 1 player in 100 would know how to rule on a fair batted ball that hit a runner in contact with a base. Third out on appeal for failure to tag up at 1B? Force play and nullify all runs. Everybody knows that. Most of them think it's "2 from the outfield, 1 from the infield" or "1 plus 1." That kind of stuff.

Yada, yada, yada, snipped for brevity.

Yeah, the SP players are not too with it. Could it be that part of the reason is because there are so many different organizations and a multitude of different "local" rules interjected by league administrators?

Same with the umpires. You have umpires that are just the same as players. Some bring all their colored shirts to the field, not knowing which organization they are working that night. And you have the every popular switching back and forth between baseball and softball. But that's only part of it. The other side is that there are too many veterans that just don't believe it is worth their time to attend the clinics. Those umpires are just as stupid as the players in not being able to recognize the difference between the rules on the softball field and what they see on TV.

Then there are the ever popular, "hell, I'm a fastpitch umpire, any idiot can do slowpitch" umpire who takes the games for extra money, but doesn't have a clue what's going on. The next thing you know, s/he's calling an IP for the pitcher stepping "outside the H" or calling a runner out for not immediately advancing after rounding 1B (LBR).

And then there are the "greens".

I can't speak for the rest of the country, but I have seen a lot of games here in central NJ (which at least at one time was a real hotbed of SP activity), and I can testify that many veteran SP umps don't know the rules, either. I've seen many a preposterous ruling that engendered not a peep from either team.

The behemoths to which you referred are pretenders. They're not hitting the ball, the bat is. And do you know where these guys will play their post season tournament? At the lowest level they can get away with, not at the top levels of which they brag to their girlfriend at the local pub.

FP is a different story in my experience, because many coaches at least study the rules, even if they don't interpret them correctly, and teach their players to take advantage by pushing the limits. So, at least around here, while a guy who played SP and knows something about the game can probably get away with umpiring, it would not be possible to bluff your way in a FP game. And high-level girls' travel teams or college, forget it. You better know what you're doing.

My experience would be that your perception is incorrect. It is the umpire which is lazy or trying to skate, not the game that umpire is working.

There was a FP clinic last night in this area. There were a handful of umpires that didn't show up. Some are not bad umpires and a couple pretty good, but they just don't believe they can or want to learn more. And there are a couple of duds that know they will get games that just don't want to be bothered.

It's not the game that determines the umpire's zeal, but the umpire themself.

JMHO

[azbigdawg]

I just want to ditto what Mike said. With no offense to anyone who limits themselves, i think your best bet is to work both games. IMHO..working slow pitch makes u a MUCH better base umpire. (more rotations, more calls,etc) I have seen lazy umpires in both games, so I would have to say that its the individual, and not the game. YES, it seems that there are more lazy Slow pitch umpires, but I think thats because of the lack of any standardization in local leagues... the local SP leagues just need bodies. The umpires who strive to do something other than the local beer ball are just as qualified as their FP counterparts.

[SWFLguy]

In my experiences mostly in CNY, the fast pitch
game is played by guys who played baseball and
ladies who played FP ball in high school and even
college--much more skilled and knowledgeable.
All too many SP players just playing "wannabe"
sluggers.
Sadly back there the FP and SP fees were the same and
all too many "umpires" would shun FP and its faster pace.
I worked them all, but found myself bored with SP, especially
working the plate.
I loved Modified Pitch, but only worked it at tournament
play. It seemed a good mix of FP and SP ball.
Here I work only High School girl's FP---a fun game for
this old school guy !!

[greymule]

I noted that I could speak only for this area. Obviously the quality of play and of officiating varies from place to place, and of course in fast, modified, and slow there are lazy umps and dedicated umps, and umps who dress like slobs and umps who want to look as professional as they can. When the big eastern teams play each other in tournaments, umpiring is exacting and difficult. And yes, doing the bases isn't easy. But the township leagues don't even use BUs any more. Everything is a one-man affair.

Men's FP disappeared around here long ago. SP took over and flourished until the late 1990s. But slow deterioration over the past decade has put SP its deathbed.

Interest has dropped to the point where leagues that operated since before WW II have folded, and there are so few competitive teams that the townships are thinking of merging their few good teams into one league. A team made up mostly of guys I played with in my 20s and early 30s dominates the area. Thirty years ago, that was inconceivable for a bunch of guys in their 50s. So were forfeits for not having enough players. Today, they're routine.

So it's partly lack of interest from the young guys, partly that there was a lot less to do 30 years ago (no computer games, DVDs, web surfing, etc.), and partly that the equipment has turned what would have been 7-4 games into 37-34 games. The main county field has a 300-foot fence 10 feet high. When I played, 8 or 10 balls would go out all year, all by true sluggers, not pretenders. Several hundred people might attend a big game. Now, they have a 6-homer limit that teams exceed by the third inning (and nobody's watching). How much fun can that be?

It is true about the "pretenders"--the JV-level guys who strut around the bases after their Miken home runs. And it's also true that the teams they're on constantly try to sneak into a low level and steal a trophy.

Again--around here--SP is dying and boring and quite negative. I think many of the players are just going through the motions out of habit. I used to enjoy doing SP; now I just want the game to end. FP games are the opposite: lively and fun and positive.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Sadly back there the FP and SP fees were the same and
all too many "umpires" would shun FP and its faster pace.

See, there is one difference right there. I stopped doing baseball and FP because of the LACK of a fast pace. Get a couple of good pitchers, or a couple of lousy pitchers and a BU could grab a snack between serious action.

Yeah, SP doesn't have that hard, precise pitching, but it does have everything else FP does plus more scoring, more action on the bases and, at the higher levels, some unbelieveable defense.

Again--around here--SP is dying and boring and quite negative. I think many of the players are just going through the motions out of habit. I used to enjoy doing SP; now I just want the game to end. FP games are the opposite: lively and fun and positive.

It's not so much as the game dying, but the players. As you stated, the older players dominate because they have been around long enough to understand how games are won and lost. With HR limitations, the super bats can only help score so many runs and the younger guys "show off" with their wallet. "Buy a bat, hit a home run" is their credo.

There is also the factor that growing up, the baby boomers didn't have as many options. It was football, basketball and baseball as the three main sports. Now you have lacrosse, soccer, ice hockey, roller hockey, wrestling, golf, swimming, diving, tennis, racquetball, skiing, snowboarding, skating, etc. vying for about the same number of participants and entertainment dollar. And, as you mentioned, the non-athletic distractions of the hi-tech world which would include fantasy leagues.

Actually, I find working the better teams in SP as very easy. They know what they are doing, they play exemplary defense and they hit the ball where they need to, when they need to. The best teams hit the ball out of the park for the purpose of exacting the most runs available, not to show off their $300 bat.

FP has been quickly climbing the ladder of popularity, but that leap started in 1997, the year after the game was included in the Olympics as a medal sport. This not only drew the interest of the girls and parents, but also sponsors and their financial support to promote the game. It is believed the '96 Olympics is what started the TV coverage of the game from the Olympics to NCAA Championships to league play on some networks. The key to all of this was the ability to get sponsors to pay for that time. No sponsors, no money, no TV regardless of the importance of the game. This is why everyone is so concerned about losing the Olympic venue. Sponsors are attracted to the five-ring logo.

The hope is that between the NCAA & ASA and in coordination with the ISF, the game can be kept in the spotlight long enough to keep the sponsor's attention and financial support.

[Edited by IRISHMAFIA on Mar 4th, 2006 at 11:22 AM]

[wadeintothem]

FP rules

SP drools

[MichaelVA2000]

I stopped working the AA (Alleged Adult)leagues several years ago. Most of their games needed babysitters more than umpires.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
FP rules

SP drools

Well, I've always believed you get out of a game what you put in.

Even though I'm not a big fan of working the FP game, I always tried to make whatever game I'm working the best game of the day.

[azbigdawg]

Originally posted by MichaelVA2000
I stopped working the AA (Alleged Adult)leagues several years ago. Most of their games needed babysitters more than umpires.

Ive seen and heard this more than once...If you havent learned people skills...it might be too much for your delicate nature

[SWFLguy]

I stopped working the AA (Alleged Adult)leagues several years ago. Most of their games needed babysitters more than umpires.

reminds me of calling SloPitch games and having batters
argue over strike/ball calls !!
Amazing !!
FHSAA high school girl's softball is still a fun game for me,
and as long as I am able, I'll be wearing the blue !