LBR/OBS Interpretation

[mcrowder]

BR hits a clean single, rounds first. Ball is thrown to F1, who remains motionless in the pitcher's circle, facing home.

BR stops briefly, decides F1 is not paying attention to her and sprints for 2nd base.

No problem so far.

Sitch 1 - BR sprains an ankle halfway to 2nd, and falls to the ground, remains motionless for more than Two Mississippi, and then crawls the rest of the way to 2nd base. F1 remains oblivious the whole time.

Sitch 2 - BR crashes into F4 standing in the basepath, and falls to the ground injured - never getting up.

Speaking ASA, what does the book say, and what's your call (should it differ from what the book says) in both situations.

[dweezil24]

Here's my take:

Sitch 1 - Since the BR is able to crawl, the injury obviously does not require "immediate attention" and Rule 4-10 does not apply. Play is still live until the BR either reaches base or is tagged out. If the BR had stayed on the ground and not tried to crawl, I would have called a dead ball and awarded 2nd base since it would have been reached (judgment call).

Sitch 2 - Obvious obstruction, award 2nd base, right?

[CecilOne]

#2 - as long as the crash was not deliberate by the BR.

[mcrowder]

Food for thought, playing devil's advocate...

Sitch 1 - how many times is BR allowed to stop? How many times did she stop?

Sitch 2 - Same questions. Plus - when a player is OBS'd, and not played upon, what happens, and what are her requirements?

[Andy]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Food for thought, playing devil's advocate...

Sitch 1 - how many times is BR allowed to stop? How many times did she stop?

This runner is out for violating the LBR. Don't like it and would expect some heat from the offensive coach, but really don't have any choice. Ball is live, this is not a life-threatening injury, I have no rule basis to kill the play and place this runner on either first or second base.

Sitch 2 - Same questions. Plus - when a player is OBS'd, and not played upon, what happens, and what are her requirements?

In this play, I am going to signal and call the obstruction and wait to see what happens. When it is apparent to me that BR is not going to get up or attempt to continue to second, I kill the play, announnce the obstruction and award the appropriate base. BR would be out on the LBR, but since she was obstructed between first and second base she cannot be put out between first and second (with certain exception that do not apply here). Then I'm going to call the coach out to deal with his injured player.

[dweezil24]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Food for thought, playing devil's advocate...

Sitch 1 - how many times is BR allowed to stop? How many times did she stop?

Sitch 2 - Same questions. Plus - when a player is OBS'd, and not played upon, what happens, and what are her requirements?

Yeah, I though of that. To me, it depends how much of a stop it really was coming around 1st. If the ball is in the pitcher's hand, the runner clearly stopped at first and the play was clearly over, I would have called time before the runner had a chance to break for 2nd. If it was just a hesitation, then the play is still live, IMO, and the BR made only one stop on the injury.

From what I understand, OBS doesn't require a play to be made on the runner, just a fielder causing a runner to alter their path without the ball, correct? I don't think she has any further requirements if she's KO'd on the ground.

[dweezil24]

Originally posted by Andy

This runner is out for violating the LBR.

Maybe a very Rookie question here: What does LBR stand for?

[BretMan]

LBR stands for "Look Back Rule".

[dweezil24]

Originally posted by BretMan
LBR stands for "Look Back Rule".

Ah, FP only, which is why I didn't recognize it (I've only umped SP). What's the correct ruling for SP?

[mcrowder]

Your "Dead Ball!" is more correct for slowpitch - I don't work it enough though, so may be wrong.

LBR is a fastpitch rule. Runners can stop once while the ball is in the circle, decide which direction they want to go, and then must go that direction without stopping (except on a base). Which is the crux of these situations.

Andy - why do you say the exceptions don't apply?

There is a reason the OP is asking what the RULE ruling is, and what you would do, if it differs from the rule. I suspect a majority would not call either situation strictly by the book, unless "by the book" includes a liberal use of a little God Rule.

[Andy]

Originally posted by mcrowder

Andy - why do you say the exceptions don't apply?

I am referring to the exceptions to the OBS rule. Committing interference after being obstructed, passing another runner, being appealed for not touching a base, etc. None of those exceptions apply to this play, but I did not want to make a blanket statement that the BR cannot be put out between first and second because that is where she was obstructed.

My first response is how I would handle it on the field, but I'm beginning to think I'm missing something. I don't have the ASA book here with me, only the HS book. I did look at that, but still can't see any reason to call it different.

[mcrowder]

If someone around has the rulebook, please post the relevant part of the rule.

If memory serves, the runner cannot be put out between the two bases where she's obstructed, but must still run the bases legally. The LBR, to me, is exactly like the other exceptions you mention. Change the sitch just a bit, making it just minor obstruction (say BR merely had to run around F4 - but no contact), have BR run a couple more steps toward 2nd, and then stop a 2nd time. Do you have an out now, despite the OBS? And if you do, why here and not in the original sitch 2?

I debate all this strictly by the book.

However, if I was in the sitch, I suspect I'd find some way to protect this runner, as I suspect most of us would (God Rule perhaps). But BY THE BOOK, I believe an out is the correct call.

I await the responses of those smarter than I (yeah, that's most of you! )

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by mcrowder
... snip ... The LBR, to me, is exactly like the other exceptions you mention. Change the sitch just a bit, making it just minor obstruction (say BR merely had to run around F4 - but no contact), have BR run a couple more steps toward 2nd, and then stop a 2nd time. Do you have an out now, despite the OBS? And if you do, why here and not in the original sitch 2?
... snip ...

No, I'm not saying I'm smarter, but there is a clear difference in my mind between a runner stopping by choice and stopping by going down in an unintentional collision. The latter and sitch #2 in this case have no relevance to the intent of the RCR (aka LBR).

[Andy]

Originally posted by mcrowder
If someone around has the rulebook, please post the relevant part of the rule.

If memory serves, the runner cannot be put out between the two bases where she's obstructed, but must still run the bases legally.

You are correct. Obstruction is addressed in the 2005 ASA book - Rule 8-5-B.

The LBR, to me, is exactly like the other exceptions you mention.

This is where I disagree with you. The exceptions listed in the ASA book are:

1. Reaching the base they would have reached without the OBS and a play is attempted on another runner.
2. Obstructed runner commits an act of interference.
3. Obstructed runner passes another runner.

My feeling is that if the rule writers wanted to include the LBR as an exception to the OBS rule, it would have been included. Since it is not specifically included, it cannot take precedence over the act of obstruction.

Change the sitch just a bit, making it just minor obstruction (say BR merely had to run around F4 - but no contact), have BR run a couple more steps toward 2nd, and then stop a 2nd time. Do you have an out now, despite the OBS? And if you do, why here and not in the original sitch 2?

I would rule on this the same as the previous. Signal and call the OBS, see what happens, kill the play when the runner stops, award appropriate bases.

I debate all this strictly by the book.

By the book, I haven't found a reason to rule on it differently than I have stated.

However, if I was in the sitch, I suspect I'd find some way to protect this runner, as I suspect most of us would (God Rule perhaps). But BY THE BOOK, I believe an out is the correct call.

I await the responses of those smarter than I (yeah, that's most of you! )

Personally, I'm waiting for Mike to weigh in on this one and tell us why we are both wrong!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Andy, let me differ with you thusly. The casebook, I believe, also allows an obstructed runner to be called out for missing a base, including one at which s/he is protected by the obstruction rule. EVEN IF THAT MISSED BASE IS CAUSED BY THE OBSTRUCTION!! That leads me to believe that the intent of the rule is that any baserunning transgression (interference, missed bases, passing other runners, and yes, LBR, even though not specifically stated) supercedes the obstruction. If a trangression caused by the obstruction isn't ignored, why would one unrelated be?

CecilOne: "Minor obstruction", so far as I know, is not of softball significance. I know it has a place in baseball lore and interpretation, but not here, Either a runner is obstructed, or not; the amount of obstruction only relates to the amount of anticipated award or protection, it has no significance to the ruling.

In sitch #1, I have an out on the LBR. I feel sorry for the runner, but, unless I see an injury requiring immediate attention, I can't protect that runner. To me, I call "time" if and when I judge that; the OP said sprained ankle, and that just doesn't meet the criteria.

In sitch #2, no way I allow the defense to benefit from the obvious obstruction. I invoke 10.1-L, and refuse to invoke the penalty for LBR when the defense is the offending team.