First Protest of Year

[IRISHMAFIA]

This is the first protested play of the year for us. What do you think?

R1 on 1B, ball batted to pitcher. As F6 comes to 2B for throw, he goes to his knees to catch the low throw on the front corner of the bag. The throw handcuffed him, bounced out of his glove and rolled toward 1B. As the runner approached 2B, F6 lunged for the ball which by now is in the basepath. This tripped up the runner attempting to attain 2B and through no fault or intent of his own, went airborne over and pass the base.

As the fielder trapped and gained control of the ball, he was in a prone position with his left leg across the bag. After the runner landed, he reached back and touched the base with his hand. At that point, the runner is ruled safe based on rule 8.3.B. Until that moment, at no time did the fielder so much as look in the umpire's direction or give any other indication that he was aware of a missed base. After the safe call, he insisted that it was a force play and the runner should have been called out.

[Roger Greene]

Mike,

I can't claim any expertise in ASA, but the runner sounds safe to me. Once he pased the base, the appeal would be unrelaxed, and if he stayed in the vicinity of the base he would have to be tagged to get the out call.

Yall done good!

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[SamNVa]

I agree with Roger. Once the runner passes a hase, he has for all intents and purposes attained that base and the force is removed. He must be tagged to be called out, unless he has advanced to the next base in which case a normal missed base appeal would suffice.

[Steve M]

I agree, thanks very much for that protest fee - we'll stick that in it's appropriate place.

I had an opportunity for my first proest this year - actually I think it would have been the first in the past 5 years or so. But the protesting coach irritated me enough that I told him he had 5 minutes to correctly cite the rule & setion that had been missed. He made sure that I knew he was an ump and knew the rules - so I gave him the chance to show me, but he couldn't. Laughed for a while at the jerk's expense later on.

[oppool]

JMHO

Sounds like incidental contact(wreck), no live ball appeal, & no tag then runner must be safe usally a play like this happens at home plate instead of 2nd.

Sounds like you will have $$$'s to plan that after the year pizza party for the Blues


Don

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Sounds like everyone is on the same page........I've got a good call from y'all too........

But what else should we expect from ya Mike?

Joel

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by SamNVa
I agree with Roger. Once the runner passes a hase, he has for all intents and purposes attained that base and the force is removed.

.................................................. .....
Not picking on you Sam, basically all answered the same,
just used your quote to get my question in.

When I first read this post I agreed wholeheartly.
I probably still agree, but now I am confused
a little...oh what the hell, a lot. Just need some
straightening out from some of the more experienced
umpires on this Forum.

Definition of Force Out. page 49

If the forced runner, after touching the next base,
retreats for any reason towards the base last occupied,
the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be
put out if the defense tags runner/base to which runner
is forced.

Natch, , I only quoted what applied best to fit what
I am asking. Is the answer staring me in face, the fact
that runner "attained" and not "touched the base?

Thanks

[oppool]

Papasmurf,

I believe the difference and the question you are asking is if the runner would go past the base forced which is 2nd then retreat between 1st and 2nd for some reason the force is reinstated but in Mike's play the runner passed 2nd in then reached out to touch 2nd never retreating pass 2nd.

Anyway that the way I see it if it is different the vets can let us know


Hope you have started drying up(rain wise)


Don

[Gulf Coast Blue]

POE 1-L........a runner is considered to have touched a base once they have passed it.

Don......we may NEVER dry out........but I hope we do.

Joel

[Bandit]

Ok guys, league ball, slow pitch, 14 & under, happened last night. I was a spectator. Bases loaded. 1 out, ball hit to short, throws home late to get the force, runner passes home w/o touching plate before ball arrives. Catcher drops ball and then p/u ball and touches plate. Umpire hesitated and called runner out. Coach goes beserk. Ump explains that runner failed to touch base and by catcher touching plate after the fact she was appealling the runner had missed the base by the catchers actions. Coach thought it should have been a verbal appeal. I think it was dumb luck on the catchers part, but thought it was a good call. Any ideas/thoughts???

[Roger Greene]

Good cal? Depends.

Was the runner still in the vicinity of the plate and was she attempting to touch the plate or had she left the vicinity of the plate and or entered dead ball territory?

The defensive player is not required to chase a runner who has passed the plate and is not still in the vicinity or the plate attempting to return. She may then just tag the plate and give Steve the "grunt" or "look."

If everbody is still rolling around in the dirt at the plate, you need a tag.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

[Casey]

I can't agree with an out here based solely on dumb luck by the catcher; I'd want some indication from the catcher that she's making an appeal, if the runner was making no attempt to return.

I like outs; 41 more and we can go home, but I don't see one here, based on what I read.

[Steve M]

I agree, gimme my grunt so I know something secial is happening if the runner has entered the dugout area. If runner is still "near" the plate, I need a tag.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yep,

Merely picking up a ball while in contact with a base does not, at least to me, constitute an appeal. The player must give me some indication that they know what is happening.

[IRISHMAFIA]

F.Y.I.

This play was my call as the BU. My ruling on the field was that the runner, through no fault of his own had passed the base, therefore assumed to have touched the base and considered safe unless properly appealed.

I eliminated any obstruction or collision options since the ball did indeed arrive prior to the runner.

I ruled that shy of some indication by the fielder that he knew the runner missed the base prior to the runner finally making contact with the bag, I did not have a proper appeal.

During the ensuing argument, the coach asked if I could go for help. I reiterated my ruling and asked him if he would like to file a protest. The entire time, I've got a big grin on my face and am nodding my head in an affirmative manner.

The UIC of the tournament was my boss, the state UIC. I explained the play and the ruling I applied and then called the coaches over to explain his decision. The entire time, the UIC is smiling and nodding knowing damn well the players and coaches just are not going to understand the rule no matter what we tell them.

After the game, I showed the manager rule 8.3.b and asked him to read the entire rule. He finally relented and said, "wow, you guys were right!" My silent reponse was, no kidding sherlock. Okay, maybe that wasn't the exact thought going through my mind d:-)

The good news is that my UIC wanted to just be sure and submitted the play to the regional UIC. I received an e-mail today acknowledging the ruling as correct.

So, do you think I should keep a copy in my bag for the next time I see that manager?

WooHoo! When are these players going to learn that some of us actually read the rule book d:-)