The Official Forum - Illegal Substitution

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NFHS (but I think all are the same.):

In the top of the third, S1 bats for B1 and S2 bats for B2. In the bottom of the third, B1 and B2 re-enter.

In the bottom of the fifth, S2 enters to play defense for B1. The opposing coach notifies the PU of the illegal substitution (a) after S2 has taken position on the field or (b) after S2 has made a play on the ball. In (a) and (b) S2 is restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

In either case can B1 take her defensive position or is she considered to have left the game for her second time?

I think by rule, even in (a) that the coach would need another unused sub to fill that spot... but I just never remember it being discussed.

Quote:

Originally posted by SC Ump
NFHS (but I think all are the same.):

In the top of the third, S1 bats for B1 and S2 bats for B2. In the bottom of the third, B1 and B2 re-enter.

In the bottom of the fifth, S2 enters to play defense for B1. The opposing coach notifies the PU of the illegal substitution (a) after S2 has taken position on the field or (b) after S2 has made a play on the ball. In (a) and (b) S2 is restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

In either case can B1 take her defensive position or is she considered to have left the game for her second time?

I think by rule, even in (a) that the coach would need another unused sub to fill that spot... but I just never remember it being discussed.

Actually, S1 would be eligible to re-enter for B1 (or another unused sub could also be subbed for B1), but B1 and S2 are toast.

Your answer is in the casebook; specifically 3.4.1 Sit B. An illegal sub enters for F4 and is discovered one out later. "F4 may only return if she has re-entry eligibility."

In your case, B1 left the game for the second time. No re-entry, need a new sub.

WMB

Quote:

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Your answer is in the casebook...

Thanks. I had missed that.

Also, bkb, good catch.

Quote:

Originally posted by SC Ump
NFHS (but I think all are the same.):

The opposing coach notifies the PU of the illegal substitution (a) after S2 has taken position on the field or (b) after S2 has made a play on the ball. In (a) and (b) S2 is restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game.

Picking some minors nits ....

In NFHS, a substitute is in the game once announced (which should NEVER happen in this case!!), or, if unannounced, when she takes her position in the field AND the umpire makes the ball live. Therefore, (a) might be premature.

In ASA (4-6.B), a substitute is not in the game, even if reported, until a pitch (legal or illegal) or a play (could be an appeal) has been made. Therefore (a) may result in nothing, and B2 COULD return if the substitution didn't (yet) happen.

In NCAA, subs cannot re-enter, so this play is unlikely. However, an illegal player is in the game as soon as reported, or if unreported, as soon as discovered. However (and this would be a wonderful question to the rules editor), illegal players can warm up other players; if I were the offending coach, I would argue that, until the ball is made live after the half inning, the illegal player was only acting as a warm-up player, not an intended substitution.

"Illegal Substitution"

Five yard penalty. Repeat down.

Bob