what to call? could not find in rulebook!

[rc blue]

Runner on 1B.
Batter hits the ball but is thrown out at 1B.
Runner has advanced to 2B, but for an unknown reason, decided to go back to 1B after touching 2B.
Defense was not sure what to do.
Coaches told pitcher to throw the ball to 1B and tag the runner while he stood on 1B (no pitch was thrown to the next batter yet). Ump called him out.

This happened in my younger brother's baseball game, and the runner was called out. I looked for it in the ASA rule book (in case I ever had to deal with it) and could not find anything about it. I looked at rule 8, section 3.

So is a runner allowed to give up his/her base and go back to the previous one? Would it make any difference if the runner went back after the next batter was pitched to?

I am curious about other peoples' opinions and interpretations. If anyone finds a situation like this in any softball rule books, please let me know!

[Bandit]

Wow, lots of questions could come with this one..I dodn't know why the runner decided to go back but if the BR was already called out and the runner retreated to first base and arrived before anyone tagged him, he/she should be safe...Why did the umpire call an out??? Can't look for a dead ball, baseball or fast pitch softball, the ball would still be live. I think I would have a out for the BR, and dumb runner still on first.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yep, the runner is safe. The only rule which would allow the runner to be ruled out would be if the umpire thought it was intentionally done to confuse the defense (like that is hard to do) or make a travesty of the game.

However, in SP, if the umpire called time after the play seemed over prior to the runner returning to first, the runner should have been instructed to return to second base before continuing with the game.

[mach3]

I agree that he is ok if play was not interrupted. If it was pitched to the next batter and than the runner would run back to first, I would call him out, since he tries to confuse the defence.

In that sence it makes a difference. If the action continues I would guess that the runner is not too smart, if he stood there for a pitch or two, he knows what he is doing and where he belongs.

But why did the Umpire wait until the tag to call the runner out? If re runs reverse to confuse, he is out immedeatly.

[Steve M]

Maybe I'm picturing this differently, and I'm definitely looking as a fastpitch guy. If this runner has stopped and the ball been returned to the pitcher and all other play appears stopped and THEN the runner decides to head back to his previous base, I've got an out. If, however, runner never really stopped - this is all continuous, then he's safe at his previous base.

[Gus44]

The way I read it, according to Rule 8, Section 3-B, The runner would be out.

"When a runner or batter-runner acquires the right to a base by touching it before being put out, the runner or batter-runner is entitled to hold the base until legally touching the next base in order or is forced to vacate it for a succeeding runner.
EFFECT - The ball is in play, and the runners may advance or return with liability to be put out"

The original R1 was forced from first base and touched second base, thus making second base he is entitled to hold. He no longer has a right to first base. As in the "EFFECT" above, advancing or returning, would make him liabil to be tagged out.

Just my view!

Gus

[Steve M]

Gus,
Reread the play. When the runner was tagged, he was already back on 1B. With the citing you gave, he is LIABLE to be put out - meaning if tagged while off a base, he is out. Any way that we look at this, it's a brain fart by the runner. But we can't just call him out for being stooooopid, at least, until the rules get changed.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by rc blue


If anyone finds a situation like this in any softball rule books, please let me know! [/B]

rc blue, rule 8 section 8 T2 2001 ASA Book

Once the runner stops at a base for any reason,
he will be declared out if he leaves the base.

This is of course, if the pitcher has the ball
in the eight foot radius circle.

Best I can do as far as a softball ruling. I
would call him out just for being dumb.

[bluezebra]

"The only rule which would allow the runner to be ruled out would be if the umpire thought it was intentionally done to confuse the defense (like that is hard to do) or make a travesty of the game."

How could any sane ump consider this situation "confusing the defense"? Who is he/she confusing, and to what purpose? The runner has already gained the next base (2nd), so what purpose would the runner have? Common sense should prevail, and let the play develop.

Bob

[IRISHMAFIA]

Bob,

Just relating the rule as noted in the ASA book. I did not imply that this was done to confuse the defense though I know of situations where it could be, but I do not believe there are that many players or coaches who would be on the ball enough to try it. And if they did, you really don't know if the umpire would recognize it.

[bluezebra]

Mike:

The only possible way I could think of is if there's a runner on 3B, and R1 retreats to draw a throw, giving R3 a chance to score.

Bob

[IRISHMAFIA]

That's the one I thought of, also.

[Gus44]

Steve M,

I still have an out. The key to this play is that the runner has already touched second base. Once he has done that, second base is the ONLY base that he "has the right to". The "EFFECT" from Rule 8, Section 3-B, states that "The ball is in play, and the runners may advance or RETURN with liability to be put out". The "return" part is what I think comes into play here.

Just my opinion,
Gus

[Steve M]

Originally posted by Gus44
Steve M,

I still have an out. The key to this play is that the runner has already touched second base. Once he has done that, second base is the ONLY base that he "has the right to". The "EFFECT" from Rule 8, Section 3-B, states that "The ball is in play, and the runners may advance or RETURN with liability to be put out". The "return" part is what I think comes into play here.

Just my opinion,
Gus

Gus,
I understand that, but, when the runner returned, did he touch 2B on the way back? I read it that way in this play (as the runner touces 2B and then brain farts & decides to head back to 1B). Effectively, this touching 2B while going back to 1B (same as runners must do when a fly has been caught & they advanced more than a base), means that he's now given up the rights to 2B. Don't forget that your force is removed since batter-runner was put out at 1B.

[Gus44]

You win. I thought of that also after I posted. That is what these forums are made for. They help us see things from more than our original point of view.

Thanx,
Gus