Other ways to handle it?

[umpharp]

Like many of you, I'm dusting off gear and getting ready for the new season when I was reminded of a game that didn't go well and i'm curious for other thoughts.

This is ASA JO 14 and under league game.

I'm working with a newbie umpire. The umpire was eager to learn and I think he'll make a decent umpire. This was late in the season, so I'm not sure if he started mid year or if nobody had given him much advice....
Anyway, I'm on the plate. R1 on 1st, 1 out.
R1 steals on the pitch, B1 hits a slow ground ball to shortstop. I trailed a few steps to first. Shortstop bobbled the ball briefly and then threw to first. I started drifting towards third as R1 is now waiting at second to see what short does. The play at first is BANG BANG. The kinda play that we dream about. As Bang Bang as a play can get. The Base Umpire is in position and he calls the runner.....Well we wait....and there is no call from the base umpire. Coaches are yelling. The Base Umpire finally goes up with a very weak out call. As expected, the offensive teams coach goes crazy.
I really beleive that the ump could have called safe or out and would have had no trouble from either coach if he would have sold it and called when he should have.
Since everybody knew that he wasn't sure of the call, the coach exploded.
He came to me and I sent him to the base umpire as he was the one that made the call.
After the coach told him to check with me, we got together. I told him that it was his call and that I was moving towards third and didn't get the best look. Plus, the was no reason for me to overturn his judgement.
We stuck with the out...and this is where it turned on the ugly side.
The coach continue to ask why she was out as he walked to the dugout as I went to brush off home. The scorekeeper, who was in the dugout, said "You guys are the worst guys we've had all year." No problem, at least we'll be remembered. The coach comes back out as asks to appeal the game. I mistook his comment as meaning he wanted to appeal the play. I didn't know you could appeal a game. I asked him what he was appealing. Maybe he was asking about a pulled foot, or something, even though the play was clean. He said that the out/safe call should be overturned. I told him that it was a judgement call and then I said "Lets play ball"
He went back to the dugout as the next batter stepped in. I then heard the scorekeeper say "They're f**king idiots. We can protest any G*d Damn game we want." So, I call time and call the coach from third base back to me and informed him that his scorekeeper had been ejected. He laughed and went back to the third base coaches box. I then tell the scorekeeper that he has been ejected and needs to leave. I wait and he refuses to leave. I inform the coach that he needs to leave or the game is over. Finally, the asst coach gets the scorekeeper to leave, but not after a verbal barage of thoughts. The game comtinues with no trouble.
Any other ways that this could have been handled without it leading to a ejection.
Thanks

[CecilOne]

Other than the obvious making the call to begin with, one way out was to talk with the caoch before he went back to the dugout, assuring him that the runner was out by not beating the throw and just because the call was weak didn't mean it wasn't an out. Resolving the issue with the coach before he could go to the dugout and stir up trouble would have helped. Also, a warning (to the coach) after the scorer's first remark.

Other than that, the only other way was
- clarify what the coach was asking when he came back out and then
- telling him there could be no appeal and
- calming him down
- making sure he understood there would be no more talk or comments.

This is definitely not a criticism or saying I would have handled it better - stuff happens.

[Mike Walsh]

Originally posted by umpharp
This is ASA JO 14 and under league game.


Since everybody knew that he wasn't sure of the call, the coach exploded.
He came to me and I sent him to the base umpire as he was the one that made the call.
After the coach told him to check with me, we got together.

The coach comes back out as asks to appeal the game. I mistook his comment as meaning he wanted to appeal the play. I didn't know you could appeal a game. I asked him what he was appealing. Maybe he was asking about a pulled foot, or something, even though the play was clean. He said that the out/safe call should be overturned. I told him that it was a judgement call and then I said "Lets play ball"

Thanks

When working with a rookie, protecting him sometimes means stepping in where you normally wouldn't. Not always, but sometimes. Especially when he seems unsure. In this case, the coach came to you first, and you sent him to your partner. Correct move, usually. But on this day, a stern, "Coach, it's a judgment call, don't even come out," followed by, "Coach, get back in the dugout" might have stopped things sooner.

You said that the coach sent your partner to you. Both you and your partner gave him too much leash. You couldn't control this part, of course, but I hope you pointed out to your partner that he should only come to you when he thinks it's necessary, not when the coach does (and this was not one of those times).

The protest (and it was a protest, not an appeal) was a good opportuntity to re-establish control. You were right to ask what he was protesting. As soon as he indicated it was judgment, you should have given him hell. Told him something like, "Denied. You know that's not protestable. And if you try any more of this crap, I'll toss you like he should have. Now get back in the dugout and don't let me here another peep out of you".

Mike

[Andy]

In this scenario, I don't see how an ejection could be avoided, if it was me it would have come sooner.

You are absolutely correct in that the delayed, then weak out call was the start of the trouble. Since you knew your partner was a rookie, you might have accompanied the coach when you sent him to your partner. Just a suggestion, let your partner handle the conversation as a learning experience, but be ready to step in if necessary.

The coach continuing to ask about the play after the meeting should have been met with "Coach, the play is over the call has been made, and you have received your explanation. Let's play ball!"

The first comment from the scorekeeper about being the "worst all year" would have been the last. Since he is in the dugout, he's team personnel, this was a personal comment and a scorekeeper ranks lower on my list than an assistant coach. Ejection - right now! If he keeps going, my instruction to the head coach is that your scorekeeper has been ejected and guess who's next if the scorekeeper doesn't disappear real fast.

There are just times when an ejection is necessary - from your description, this sounds like one of 'em.

Needless to say - a very thorough post game with your partner was also necessary!

[azbigdawg]

What Andy said. A scorekeeper in the dugout gets NO leeway, and that may possibly have handled the situation. Its understandable that the coaches were upset, but once they get their answer, thats all.

Long conversation over a coke with your partner after the game...

[Justme]

IMHO several mistakes were made.

1. Your rookie partner didn’t sell his call. That happens to those new guys sometimes….they’re like a deer in the head lights.
2. When the coach came to you, you should have sent him to the dugout NOT to your partner. Why would you ever ‘send’ the coach to talk to your partner? That sounds like a rookie move on your part. NEVER offer your partner up to a coach, especially a rookie partner.
3. You should have made it clear to the coach that it was a judgment call and you don’t argue those calls. In fact when I saw the coach coming I would have warned him that we don’t discuss safe/out. But I would have added “Coach, I had her out too”. That might have defused the situation.
4. When the coach came to you and said that he wanted to appeal the game you should have told him what the rules say.
5. You should have tossed the scorekeeper sooner.

When I work with a partner for the first time I always learn what his experience level is. I want to know if I need to look out for him more than normal.

[azbigdawg]

Originally posted by Justme
IMHO several mistakes were made.

1. Your rookie partner didn’t sell his call. That happens to those new guys sometimes….they’re like a deer in the head lights.
2. When the coach came to you, you should have sent him to the dugout NOT to your partner. Why would you ever ‘send’ the coach to talk to your partner? That sounds like a rookie move on your part. NEVER offer your partner up to a coach, especially a rookie partner.
3. You should have made it clear to the coach that it was a judgment call and you don’t argue those calls. In fact when I saw the coach coming I would have warned him that we don’t discuss safe/out. But I would have added “Coach, I had her out too”. That might have defused the situation.
4. When the coach came to you and said that he wanted to appeal the game you should have told him what the rules say.
5. You should have tossed the scorekeeper sooner.

When I work with a partner for the first time I always learn what his experience level is. I want to know if I need to look out for him more than normal.

I agree with all except for #2. There ARE times when you have to send a coach to your partner, especially if he made the original call. This however, was NOT one of those times. It was obvious that your partner was temporarily fried. If the coach wasnt asking about a pulled foot or something like that, send him back to the dugout. If your partner has more experience, he could handle it himself. I think in this case, you take as much heat as possible, and give your partner time to regroup and realize that you will support him.

[umpharp]

Thanks for the comments. We did have a good conversation after the game and it did seems like he was willing to learn.
I do think that I gave too much leash to the coach and scorekeeper, but we all learn.
I also agree with Mike that even though procedure would usually call for me to send him to my partner since it was his call that in this case I should have stepped in and do what Andy suggested with making it a three way conversation.
This was a good learning tool for both of us, especially the rookie. I think that him seeing a coach get upset and arguing opened his eyes to the fact that there will be games where there are arguments.
I hope he comes back for another year.

[Al]

"The protest (and it was a protest, not an appeal) was a good opportuntity to re-establish control. You were right to ask what he was protesting. As soon as he indicated it was judgment, you should have given him hell. Told him something like, "Denied. You know that's not protestable. And if you try any more of this crap, I'll toss you like he should have. Now get back in the dugout and don't let me here another peep out of you".

Great Mike! ...I sure would love to be at a game where you are the Umpire and something of that nature took place. There were some good comments given by others, but you clearly gave the best answer to that difficult situation. You would have hung him with his own rope! You would have let the coach see his own folly and the reminded him of the results that will come if that folly doesn't stop immediately. Plus you would taken some of the downside of your partners slow and weak call by making the coach look like the rookie for trying to protest a game on a judgment call, even if it wasn't a thing of beauty.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by azbigdawg


I agree with all except for #2. There ARE times when you have to send a coach to your partner, especially if he made the original call. This however, was NOT one of those times. It was obvious that your partner was temporarily fried. If the coach wasnt asking about a pulled foot or something like that, send him back to the dugout. If your partner has more experience, he could handle it himself. I think in this case, you take as much heat as possible, and give your partner time to regroup and realize that you will support him.

I think we should add to this, that with a new umpire you probably should go to him with the coach.
Don't leave the newbie hung out there but rather help to guide the "talk" with the coach.
Most newbies don't know how to end the "discussion" the coach wants to have.
Your presence there will help to control the situation, build the newbies confidence and shows the teamwork of the umpires.

I know that for a while now, the ASA national staff has been emphasizing the crew get together on a question, then let the calling official talk to the coach.
To have both officials present in the discussion is not wrong.
You only speak up when you need to.