Here is the play: R1 rounds 3rd heading home, F2 receives ball and tags R1 prior to reaching plate. BUT, as she is completing the tag on the up swing (swipe tag) the mitt hits the runners knee and the ball falls out as she is bringing the mitt up. To better describe the situation, F2 was pulled to behind LH batters box to get throw, she is coming up to make tag and swings from her R to L contacting R1's outstretched foot up her leg and then as she is coming up with it R1's other shin/knee contacts the mitt and the ball comes out.

So now the question: Do we have an out? How do you determine how long she has to have control of the ball before calling the out?

I see it as control has to be maintained until completion of the play. Meaning in this case until she brings the mitt up to complete the tag, and / or tries to make another move with it. A fellow blue thought the contact with the lead foot and leg gave her the out, and the following knee / shin contact that knocked the ball loose didn't matter. What say you all?

There needs to be voluntary release to have a catch, or be in the process of a transfer to the throwing hand to make another play. I say safe.

I basically agree with Rachel, but if control by F2 was obvious and not a question until and including the tag on the first leg AND if the ball being knocked loose by the second leg was separate from the tag, it could be an out.

Speaking ASA

As you describe the play, the call is out.

From your description, there is no doubt that F2 had control of the ball when tagging the runner's lead leg. This action satisfies 8.7.B, the runner is out. Subsequent action cannot change that. There is no requirement for the defender to withdraw the ball and demonstrate control in this situation, that only applies to a catch. This is a tag, not a catch.

Now, if the ball came loose on the initial contact, then you have F2 not having control of the ball when tagging the runner who should be ruled safe as defined by rule 8.8.G.1

I know better than to disagree with Mike, but -- I agree with Rachel. The only question should be "was there a voluntary release of the ball". If not, there was no control and no out. If you determine the release was voluntary, then you have an out.

Pizza Fund +$1
 

As John can tell you, I'd have an "Out", then a "Safe" because I still have a nasty habit of making the call too quickly. That pizza fund would be growin' by a buck on that play. Slowing down my calls is one of my things to work on in 2006. In all seriousness, I'd agree with Rachel on this one and have a "Safe", however long it takes me to get there.

Happy & Healthy New Year to you all (even the trolls).

Not asking to you agree. I am asking you to support Rachel's ruling in the book.

Re: Pizza Fund +$1
 

Even I can verify your double calls.. ;)

For it to be a catch on a batted or thrown ball, a ball must be released voluntarily. This is not the primary concern in a tag play.

In a tag, the ball must be held securely during the tag.

With the above statement, it sounds as if the tag was not yet judged by the offical to be completed and thus I believe it should be safe.

That's not totally true. According to ASA Rules, a valid catch is established if "the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove total control of it and/or that the release of the ball is voluntary and intentional." In the words of Henry Pollard, that meant that if the umpire felt that the fielder COULD have released the ball voluntarily, then you should consider that a catch.

Nonetheless, I suspect we are picking at nits, and all have about the same interpretation; we are somewhat limited by the description. If the tag was complete, we saw control, and then the runner kicked the ball out, we have an out. If we didn't see control, then we don't have an out. How long does it take, or how long was the time lapse here? Can't be described, so why pick at it? Bottom line, you have a tougher sell on the out, and we don't guess outs, so if you aren't sure, the runner is safe.

Speaking ASA

If you want to be picky, a voluntary release is not necessarily required for a catch to be valid. Read the definition of Catch in Rule 1. The player showing complete control of the ball is enough.

The voluntary release is an additional method to validate the catch. If it were a requirement, balls dropped on the exchange would, by rule, for the umpire to rule an already retired safe which would contradict 1.CATCH.A.

Again, there is nothing in the rule to support a safe call as the original scenario specifically states that the tag was made while F2 was in possession of the ball.

BTW, there is also nothing in the book mentioning or requiring the defender to "complete" a play to validate the actions during it.

Re: Pizza Fund +$1
 

Here's my take:
Who or what caused the release of the ball? When was the ball released?

The tag was made. THAT was the play. The fielder had control of the ball when the play was made.

Unlike the NBA, we don't have "continuation." Once the tag is made, we have an out. That is one play. Once we have a play, and an out, whatever happens next is part of another play (or throwing the ball around the horn, or throwing the ball back to the pitcher, etc.).

What or who caused the ball to come out? The runner. What would be different between the description given here and the runner, even inadvertently, kicking the ball out, or swiping the ball out of the glove like ARod did?

I say we have an out and $1 in the pizza fund.

I would also ask you to think about survivability. Which explanation is easier?

1. "No, coach, your runner caused the ball to come loose AFTER the catcher had plainly tagged her out. She tagged her on one leg. Your runner caused the ball to come out well after the tag with the action of her other leg. I have an out. Let's play ball."

2. "Coach, I know your catcher tagged her out. Then the runner knocked the ball loose with her other leg after the tag."

Now which one of these is going to a) make sense, b) cause you less grief, and c) be more correct under the rules of the game? IMHO, it is going to be 1.

As always, if ya show me in the book where she's safe, I'll call her safe, Til then, I have an out.

Steve, I believe any limitation of the description insists the runner be ruled out. The scenario was specific in that the tag was made on the lead leg and as F2 was withdrawing the glove with the ball, the now-retired runner's leg/knee kicked the ball from the glove. Is it possible at in real time that might not necessarily have been what happened? Yes, but that is not what was offered to us. To presume any other scenario would be ignoring the facts offered.

BTW, the definition of a catch is irrelevant to this play.

Control, catch, voluntary release ..... is all mundane to the original question and scenario.

If the player had control of the ball after the first tag ( I read in the original post where she did ) she's out. Any action after that by a knee, hand reaching into the mitt, whatever, is irrelevant as far as this rule goes. If, as stated, the knee knocked the ball out, she's out on the tag on the foot. As Mike stated, it meets the conditions set in 8.7.B.

It looks to me like we have another classic example of a play that we can read, think about, picture in our minds, dissect it, get the rule book, look up the definition of a tag, etc, etc, then post our thoughts.

In real time, on the field, we have catch, tag, contact with the runner's other leg, ball pops loose. All of these actions happen in the space of probably less than a second. Everybody in the joint sees the ball come loose. Steve and John both mentioned survivability and selling the call. I'm inclined to think that if this were me making the call, I would have a safe call due to the ball coming out.

Perhaps not correct by rule, as Mike has pointed out. I'm not taking the easy way out, I'm saying that in real time, it may be very difficult to determine a definite time between the tag and the ball coming out due to hitting a different part of the runner.

I agree with Andy. I guess you had to be there.(HTBT)

It is just nice to talk about rules again.

Any bang-bang play is HTBT. But if the poster saw what he said he saw, and was able to discern in a second or two that this is indeed what he saw, the call to be made is an out. "Voluntary Release" gets used way too much as a crutch. It is but ONE method used to determine that a ball was in fact in control, but is by no means the ONLY possible way to show control. This term has crawled into coach-speak, and is misused there as badly as "the ground cannot cause a fumble" has in football.

Had a play where F9 made a clean catch, took literally 12-14 steps, was nearing the dirt on her way to the 3B dugout when the ball simply fell out of her glove. Coach went so ballistic quoting "voluntary release" at me that he ejected himself.

Don't fall into the trap.

Was there control at the time of the tag. Period.

Let's take it to an extreme to make it easier to visualize. Manute Bol is sliding head first into home covered by Spud Webb. Spud tags him on the lead hand and stands up. Manute's left foot strikes the ball on the way past and dislodges it.

Clearly an out as Spud had control when making the tag.

The same would apply to the original question. The problem we have is that since loss of control occured so quickly in relation to the tag the tag itself is doubted. If she really had control how did she lose it so easily so the judgement of the blue comes into play, did she really have control or not? As originally worded she did but then the blue complicates things because deep down he questions if she did in fact have control.

Never guess an out but if you're sure the ball was dislodged after the tag you got one.

Many great responses and "thoughts".
I have mentally re-played the situation as described and have an "out".
Of course, with this play I would be very certain to "sell" the out call.
Thanks,
Sam

Then how would you call this play...
Throw to retire batter-runner at first base draws the first baseman into the path of the runner. First baseman SECURES the throw and tags the runner just before the collision. Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt.
First baseman had control of the ball during the tag.
Length of time between the tag and the loss of possession should not be a factor.
In the afore-mentioned play, that was ONE play and the catcher did not complete the play satisfactorily to warrant an out.
I say 'safe' on both situations.

Sorry, but that is the ONLY factor. I believe ignoring such a thing is a lack of diligence on behalf of the umpire.

Quote:

In the afore-mentioned play, that was ONE play and the catcher did not complete the play satisfactorily to warrant an out. I say 'safe' on both situations.

Speaking ASA

Don't know of any rule or interpretation supporting the statement above.

On the collision at first, if the umpire determines that F3 had control of the ball and completed the tag, the call is out. If not, then the call is safe.

So if you had a play like the ARod play in the baseball playoffs a couple years ago, when he knocked the ball out of the defender's glove, you would call that runner safe?

"First baseman had control of the ball during the tag"
With this description I call "OUT".
You go on to state that "Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt".
Please explain how you consider this a "safe" call.
Thank you,
Sam

Secured position by the fielder at the time of the tag results in an out, regardless of what happens after the intial tag.

VA, you're way off on this one. I think you're letting yourself be swayed by announcer-speak on this one. Nothing you imply is even remotely supported by the rulebook. There is ONE question that the umpire must answer on a play like this:

Did the fielder have possession of the ball during the tag?

That's it. If yes, then everything that happened afterward is moot.

For Sake of Arguement:
 

The USSSA rulebook defines a tag the following way:

TAG is the action of a Fielder touching a Base with any part of his body while holding
the ball firmly and securely in his hand or glove. Also, Tag refers to touching the
Runner with the ball, or with the glove holding the ball, while continuously holding
the ball firmly and securely during and immediately following the tag.


I have to admit - as a USSSA umpire I was having difficulty calling that play safe as the fielder didnt hold the ball firmly and securely during and immediately following the tag. In my mind there is control of the ball that needs to be maintained after the tag occurs. I can sell the safe call on this one much easier than the out.

Re: For Sake of Arguement:
 

Now we can discuss the definition of "immediately" ;)

REVISION:

If control by F2 was seen for the tag on the first leg AND if the ball being knocked loose by the second leg was separate from the tag, it was an out.

I'm new to Umpiring, with only one year umpiring for USSSA coach pitch 8 & under. I expect to learn a lot from experienced umpires and want to thank all those that take the time to help give better understand to the rules and mechanics of umpiring. I just found this open forum board and have already found it to be a good one.

As I understand the situation brought up by Dave I see a ball that was not held securely enough by the fielder to complete the play, and a ball that was not knocked out of the fielders glove intentionally. In this play where both those things were true...

You can put it on the board....Safe!

So let me see if I understand this:

F2, with the ball already secured in her glove, tags R1 at home BUT due to continuing action R1's knee knocks the ball from F2's glove?

I've got an OUT!

I have read with interest all of the comments on this play and the discussion of control etc...........

Let me say that for those of you who would have ruled "safe", You wouldn't fare well with Henry P and his clinics or ASA's rulings.

Henry is famous for giving an example of a fielder "catching" the ball on the back side of the glove, not in the pocket, and then throwing the ball to turn a double play.

I believe it was Arizona that used to do this quite frequently in the NCAA ranks, I know it was a shortstop,
The player would catch the ball on the back of the glove (controlling the ball), step on the bag, grab it with the free hand and then fire it to first. This was quick, so quick that many people never realized that the ball never went into the glove.

Technically, the ball wasn't in the glove but it was controlled, some times she messed it up and fumbled it away, it didn't take away the out that had been made.

Succeeding action or continuation cannot eliminate the control that was there to begin with.

As the play was origianally described, I have an out.
I also probably have a discussion with the coach coming, but I know how to tell a coach that the control was there for the tag (which made an immediate out) and then following action caused the ball to come loose but "THE OUT STANDS"

I had a play very nearly like the one described at a Men's Major National a few years back, I ruled the out etc and got a well done from my UIC at that tournament. I saw the same thing at the Women's Armed Forces Championship that I worked again the UIC (Walt Sparks) gave a well done to the umpire.

I really think some of you need to really think about the play and what happens, break it down into individual parts and you will change your mind on your rulings that you have offered.

Scott,

Even after reading your comments and other good arguments for an out call I still think the right call is safe. I base this on the USSSA rule of control of the ball. In this case there is not enough time to show clear evidence of the ball being in control. If anything it shows the ball was not firmly in control, or it wouldn't have been knocked loose in a split second after the tag. I know in an open field tag where the ball drops out of the glove the rule is safe. It's ruled safe because the ball was dropped upon contact. We have no proof that the ball would not have been dropped... even if the glove was not hit by the runners knee.

In the case where the ball is loosed from a glove (before control can be shown) because another part of a runners body immediately hit the glove I do not see firm control of the ball, and would not call a runner out. The runner commited no infraction by intentionally hitting of the catchers glove. I think we have a case of judging what constitutes control when there is no time to see it proven. I was a catcher from little league through high school and remember how important it was to control the ball when getting smashed at the plate. There were times I dropped the ball, and every single one of those times (no matter if I touched the runner once or twice before the ball fell out of my glove the runner was called safe. The call was made cause there was no proof of control.

Must hurry out the door.

Actually, Al, you can only call what is offered in the scenario. By the original post, the tag was made. The player tagged the runner with the ball in the glove.

The original scenario subsequently notes the ball is then kicked out by the knee of the leg not tagged. This showed F2 did indeed have control of the ball after the tag was made.

In real action, only God knows what any of us may have called on this play. However, when Dave breaks it down the way he did, he offered us the insight necessary to develop the play in our mind and apply the rules.

Maybe this would be different in U-trip, but I would like to think it would not be.

Hi Mike,

Yes Mike, the tag was made, but as I said before I believe the rules state that there needs to be proof that the tag was a controlled tag...For all we know the ball could have been dropped even if the girl didn't have her glove hit by the runners knee. There was no time for the catcher to show the ball was controlled. If the ball were NOT dropped we would know for sure the girl had control on the tag to the leg, but because the girl dropped the ball we don't know if she had secure control or not. Having control of the ball while swiping at a moving target is not something I am going to guess on. (especially if the girl was using a catchers mitt) I think as the rule is written it's proper to call the girl safe in a situation like this.

When there's a hard slide I'm not going to assume the ball was held securely when it's dropped and the fielder has not shown me it was a controlled tag, just as I'm not going to call an out on an open field tag before the ball is shown to be held securely.

However, if the tag were made and held up to the umpire then momentarily bobbled or dropped we would have an out, because the fielder had already shown the umpire it was a proper tag, but I'm not going to speculate or guess that the tag was as the rule requires when not shown to me.

Sec.33 in the USSSA rule book states...

"A tag out is the putting out of a runner who is not touching a base, by touching the runner with a live ball, or the glove or hand when the live ball is SECURELY HELD therein by a fielder. The ball is NOT considered as having been held securely if it is juggled or dropped AFTER the touching unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder".

I have gone over this play in my mind thinking of the above rule on what makes a tag-out an out, and I believe an out call is not justified. To many it would be justified based on their understanding of the rules, but I have to go on my view of what the rules mean. To me the rule says to wait to see if the fielder met the requirement of the tag-out rule. The rule calls for a secure tag not just a tag.

You're adding (or, well, subtracting) assumptions to the original post.

The OP specifically said that the umpire COULD tell that the ball was held securely when the tag was made, and then was knocked loose during the second contact. If you could see that, you have an out.

I agree with you that in a case where you have a tag followed by a loose ball, you have to KNOW there was control during the tag to have an out.

A couple of things here.

How do you know the runner didn't deliberately kick the ball out of F2's glove in the OP? I know that didn't happen because if it did, Dave would have let us know.

Based solely on the wording above, if F3 tags out a runner for out #3 and drops the ball leaving the field, the runner isn't out. Absurd? Absolutely, but I'm basing it solely on what you have quoted. You have either omitted something, or there is an interpretation addressing this issue that you didn't publish.

Taking the wording of the rule noted above as absolute, as a player, I'm sliding hard into every player holding the ball, even on a force out. If lucky, the player will drop the ball and the umpire will call me safe.

Like many other softball rules, I understand what you quoted, but I doubt that is exactly what the authors meant. Of course, I could be wrong and if U-trip wants it that way, it's their game.

You wrote..."How do you know the runner didn't deliberately kick the ball out of F2's glove in the OP? I know that didn't happen because if it did, Dave would have let us know".

Mike,

I know the ball wasn't deliberately kicked out of the catchers mitt ...Had that been the case the call would have been out and we wouldn't have this thread going.

IMO, the intent of the rule is a tag MUST be made with secure control of the ball. In your opinion, and other experenced umpires on the board, the ball must have been considered to have been securely held... yet it ended up on the ground before proof was given. It looks like we have a judgment call of the rules in this case and I would suspect there would be many umpires that disagree with me, as there would be with you. I suspect there would be many catchers that had the call go opposite ways in similar cases, depending on who was umpiring. I'd like to ask Roy Campanella (sp?) or Yogi Berra what the pro baseball umpires call on this play, and if they all call it the same way, or not. As a catcher myself I know first hand from hearing it over and over again from my coaches and my Dad (especially when playing little league and pony league) the need to squeeze the ball so it doesn't fall out of my mitt before I can show the umpire my tag was made with secure control of the ball.

As I said a few time now, the way the play was explained one would have to guess there was control (in the face of a dropped ball) before the runner even finished her slide and the fielder had a chance to show the umpire the ball was firmly held in her mitt.

I feel like I am going in circles so this will be my last comment on this subject to answer your following comment...

You wrote..."Based solely on the wording above, if F3 tags out a runner for out #3 and drops the ball leaving the field, the runner isn't out. Absurd? Absolutely, but I'm basing it solely on what you have quoted. You have either omitted something, or there is an interpretation addressing this issue that you didn't publish".

I don't understand your point here at all. The wording of the rule is clear to me. All that the rule requires is the ball must be firmly held WHEN the tag is being made. The rule on tag-outs says the ball is not considered as having been HELD securely if juggled or dropped after the TOUCHING unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder. After the touching the umpire makes the call based on the facts he sees. If he sees a controled tag he calls out, if not he calls safe. If a tag is made the call must be made at that time, so a fielder dropping the ball while leaving the field is moot. So based solely on what I quoted a girl walking off the field and then dropping the ball means nothing because the play was over the second the umpire judged the fielder had control, or not, at the time of the tag.

Thank you. You just made the point! The fielder made the tag while controlling the ball because the OP told us so! The control of the ball was not lost UNTIL AFTER THE TAG, also noted in the OP.

Just think, only 10 monthes and 6 days before Dave can lock this thread :)

Here we go again...

The rule on tag-outs says the ball is NOT considered as having been HELD securely if juggled or dropped AFTER the TOUCHING ((unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand of the fielder)). What does that tell the readers of the rule about a non deliberately knocked loose ball? Does not the rule imply that an unintentional knocking loose of a ball brings no penalty to the runner and he would be called safe? I hope someone else that agrees with my understanding of the tag-out rule can better make the point I am trying to make.

Again, a tag is not merely the placing of a mitt on a runner but the placing of a mitt on the runner while having a firm control of the ball. In the case we are considering the umpire would have no idea if the ball was held securely, but would know for sure the fielder did not prove he had a firm hold of the ball as it was knocked loose by the runners knee.

In an open field tag an out is not credited if the ball is dropped before the fielder has shown he had control, so why would an umpire do anything differently in the case we are discussing?

Let's consider this play: An open field swipe tag is made to a runners chest and the runners arm unintentionally hits the glove as the fielder is pulling the glove away from the runner and the ball is dropped. Would the umpire just assume the tag was securely held, or would he/she say the tag was good and the girl is out??? The fact that she dropped the ball is what is used to show she had no control of the ball. It's the same thing we have in our play at the plate, is it not?

This is almost like the Abbott and Costello "WHO's on first" routine. I don't know...third base!

It all comes down to whether "as she is completing the tag on the up swing (swipe tag) the mitt hits the runners knee and the ball falls out as she is bringing the mitt up"

means:
(1) the ball was secure enough for the "up swing" to have "the ball falls out " because "the mitt hits the runners knee"
or
(2) the ball falls out as "she is bringing the mitt up" because it was not secure in the first place.

The OP gives both alternatives as the question. It can't be both, no additional assuming is needed, and the umpire on the play must JUDGE what happened, i.e.earn his/her pay. I can't imagine that 100% of us would make the same call.
If (1) is true as most of us think, the runner is out regardless of what happens after the "tag".
If (2) is true as others think, the runner is safe.

Great now we're back to apples and oranges. This is not a "catch". Two different acts and set of parameters.

I'm done.

I see a black cloud on the horizon..........
Methinks this one is gonna become the neverending story of BS

I quit,

I agree with you Al and disagree with you Mike (ASA umps never change their minds, and I should know, I was one for 20 years)...

I poised this play to my softball rules mentor, Jay Miner, who is Author and Columnist for Referee Magazine and the NASO Baseball and Softball Interpreter, and he replied with, and I quote:

""ASA and NFHS both say the tag must be securely held by the fielder and the ball is not considered as having been securely held if it is juggled or dropped by the fielder after tagging the runner, unless the runner deliberately knocks the ball from the hand(s) or glove of the fielder, a la, Alex Rodriguez knocking the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove. The NCAA tag definition does not mention the fielder dropping the ball after the tag.

The play in question obviously can be pontificated into the night with sound arguments made on both sides of the issue and I've heard convincing arguments for calling the runner either out or safe.

I've carefully read your play and have clearly pictured it in my mind. In my game, in the absence of the runner deliberately knocking the ball loose, I'm calling the runner safe, and believe me, I like outs. I'd rule, even if
I had to fudge a little, that F2 did not have control of the ball. I would have a difficult time explaining to a coach why the runner was out when the ball ended up on the ground when the runner did nothing illegal on the play.
In a bang-bang play at the plate, I would definitely have a hard time deciphering: "Yes, there is a tag out but then the ball is knocked away after the out, so the runner is out." Now, no official should fear making tough calls, but I believe in making realistic, believable and acceptable
calls. In my opinion you'd have a tremendous argument and never, ever be forgotten for calling the runner out in your play as opposed to calling the runner safe. I believe the ball in your play was dislodged on the continuing action of the tag and I'd call the runner safe. If the tag was made and the fielder and the runner still had body contact after
straightening up their bodies and the ball fell to the ground, I'd assertively reaffirm my out call as in my opinion, the continuing action of the tag was completed. Now, I know we're discussing softball but after viewing thousands and thousands of plays in major league baseball, on one of my 37 cable televisions (yes, that's right-37) over many, many years, I can never recall an out call on the type of play listed in the forum.""

... 'Nuff said, and this will be my last entry.

Will not! :D

C'mon, guys, lighten up.

Posted situations always leave visualization of the details to the reader, so we have to take what the posters say about judgments that were made pretty much at face value, unless there is detail in the situation description to show otherwise.

Progressive detail on a posted situation is also common, since none of us are always going to think of all of the important detail all the time.

Don't....
 

Take the easy way out. Secured possession at the time of the tag is an out, what happens after the tag is a non factor to the call. Sell the call and get on with it.

Re: Don't....
 

Booker...I agree that, by rule, we have an out with this play as described. However, in real time, on the field, this play will be very difficult to sell as an out.

As I said three pages ago, the amount of time between the tag and the ball popping out of the glove is very small. Everybody will see the ball coming loose and the umpire calling an out. I submit that even the defensive team will think that you have blown the call.

I am not saying to shy away from making the tough calls or to take the easy way out, I'm just saying that it may not be as easy as "Sell the call and get on with it."

Like Andy, I made this statement way back. After reading all the variations, I still see the issue the same. If we clearly saw control after the tag, we have an out; everyone agrees on that, and agrees we sell that call. The disagreement is how long is long enough to establish control, and that is now where there may be disagreement, even if we all actually saw the play; it's called judgment, not a rule interpretation dispute. Absent clear control after the tag in the judgment of the calling umpire, we have a safe call.

I prefer to be correct, make the correct call (whatever I JUDGE it to be) and worry about selling it or whether anyone disagrees or not later.