Legal Pitch?

[Coach D]

I am searching for some clarification on a pitching rule. I have read through the numerous posts you have here on pitching but was unable to relate anything to my situation.I have a pitcher who has alot of talent and has great velocity.(Girl ASA) The situation is this:The pitcher starts her pitch in the normal fashion by pushing off the mound,her stride foot lands,and then she drags and "lifts" her pivot foot.The pivot foot and the stride foot are not off the ground at the same,or at least it is not apparent in realtime.The pivot foot does come off the ground,but does not replant. The fact her pivot foot "catches air" noticeably is troublesome because I have heard of so many horror stories where this has been called in the last inning of a championship game with a runner on third.Could someone clarify the "contact with the ground" rule please.I know that the intent of the rule was for the male pitchers that leap,but I do not think they had an aggressive 12U pitcher in mind on this one.
Thanks,

[TexBlue]

Well, you're kind of going in the right direction with your post. The pivot foot must stay in contact with ground until the release of the ball.

[Mike Walsh]

I know that the intent of the rule was for the male pitchers that leap,but I do not think they had an aggressive 12U pitcher in mind on this one.
Thanks, [/B]

I only call softball games for female teams, and I've never heard that this rule was intended for males who leap. I have heard that coaches don't like to see it called, and that umpires who call it may not be asked back. You don't have to look far to see posts complaining about how inconsistently this is called.

From your description it's hard to tell, but if she isn't replanting it is likely she is not gaining an advantage. Thus, it probably won't be called often. Yet it is hard to imagine that she releases before she loses contact with the ground, so it probably is an illegal pitch. If you let her develop a bad habit at 12, it will be harder to break later. The older she gets the more it will be called, too. If she is as talented as you say, coach her to pitch legally, Otherwise, it just might be the finals when you run into an umpire who is going to call it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Coach D
I know that the intent of the rule was for the male pitchers that leap,but I do not think they had an aggressive 12U pitcher in mind on this one.
Thanks,

No, the intent of the rule was to keep all the pitchers in check. For that matter, the men's game allows the pitcher to leap as long as the toe of the pivot foot is pointed down.

While it is apparent that you are searching for the answer, you finished up your post almost is if you were seeking absolution for your pitcher. I suggest you get your pitcher to work on her drag. Anything shy of that may lead to problems for her down the road.

Good luck,

[booker227]

Coach, If your pitcher's foot is off the ground when she releases the ball it is a leap, and it is illegal. If you and she can't correct the problem she should go to a reputable pitching coach who will reinforce the proper "mechanics".
As an umpire, and officiating within the spirit of the game, I will warn a player first ,and then, if she does it again, I call it. The coaches get p---- off, but I'm not there to appease them. I call it in the first inning, so I don't have to call it in the sixth.

What these girls (and some coaches) don't understand, is that in reality they lose power and velocity whenever they lose contact with the ground. They lose the power needed to control the ball. True, they may be slightly closer to the batter, but the power generated by the push is missing and therefore they lose torque and speed.

You're doing yojr player a great favor by corecting this problem ASAP

[WestMichiganBlue]

For me, Coach, you need to clarify exactly what your pitcher is doing.

You said that she pushes off (assuming with pivot foot), and then

The stride foot lands, and then

The pivot foots drags and lifts.

So where is the pivot foot while the stride foot is traveling forward? On the ground? But you said that it drags after the stride foot lands. In the air? In your next sentence you say that both feet are never in the air at the same time. Very confusing!

Normal pitching sequence:
Stride foot comes over the plate,
Pivot leg buckles and pushes forward,
Pivot foot drags and trails stride foot.
Stride foot lands, ball is released, and pivot foot picks up to set down at side as hips close.

Two points to consider.

1. Pivot foot, despite what others have said here, does not have to stay in contact with the ground. It may break contact, but no higher than the level plane of the ground. The rules makers allow for the uneven terrain around the pitching plate. In reality, most umpires are going to allow some "lift" off the ground by the pivot foot. No umpire is going to lay on the ground and measure the height. Fact is, they are usually looking elsewhere. So, unless the "leap" is drastic and very visable (ie., more than a couple inches up and starting the drag a foot or more from the plate), it is not going to get called.

2. As noted, the pivot foot will lift at the end of the drag as part of closing the hips. Men tend to close their hips before release, thus their pivot foot will p/u before the release. Women tend to close hips after release, thus the foot will probaby pick up later. Whatever, it doesn't matter what the pivot foot does at the end of the drag. It will be legal.

WMB

[Coach D]

First of all I would like to say thank you for the quality replies to my question. It is not often that a coach can talk to so many knowledgable people at one time.
Ok to answer some of the questions. There has been alot said about the timing of the pitchers release. I know the rule says "simultaneous with the non-pivot foot landing", however without a super camera I don't know how anyone could determine this. Also one would have to have a fairly fast camera to detect this pitcher lifting her foot. The reason I caught it was because of a photograph clearly showing her pivot foot well off the ground. Her pitching sequence is the same as what was stated in the last post with the exception of after the stride foot lands the pivot foot is lifted(after a short drag)then drug to the finish position.
Now I know your probably saying,well if you have a hard time seeing it when you are trying to look for it,what is your problem? Well the pitchers pivot foot is clearly visible "catching air", however the sequence of where the release and stride foot play there part is not clearly visible due to this pitcher being really aggressive.
I think with the responses that some of you have given, it is probably not a good thing this is happening, whether it is legal or not. All that is needed is for an opposing coach to plant the seed in the umpires head, and then it is simply a matter of opinion from there.
I would also like to ask the question of what is the advantage of lifting the foot or not(in this case). If the rules were meant to keep one pitcher/team from gaining an advantage over another,how does that apply in my case?
Again thanks for your responses. I hope one day we might meet on the field.

[WestMichBlue]

I know the rule says "simultaneous with the non-pivot foot landing",

No, it does not! Both ASA and NFHS rules state that the pitcher must take one step with the non-pivot foot simultaneous with the release of the ball. What is a step? It starts with picking up the stride foot, moving it through the air, and returning to earth. Truth is that the ball will actually leave the fingers after the stride foot has landed. The pitcher needs to plant the stride foot and continue to move the body forward to "stand tall;" and to start to close the body to gain the power in the whip of the arm motion - the last foot or so of hand movement through the release zone.

"with the exception of after the stride foot lands the pivot foot is lifted(after a short drag)then drug to the finish position"

Sounds to me like she is gettting a little "bounce" when her stride foot lands. Possibly because she is getting too high a stride rather than more forward. BUT - that doesn't make it illegal. The book only says that the pivot foot must drag away from the plate. It doesn't say anything about how far the drag extends or when it ends and she can legally pick up the pivot foot. For eventually, it has to be legal to pick up the foot.

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
The book only says that the pivot foot must drag away from the plate. It doesn't say anything about how far the drag extends or when it ends and she can legally pick up the pivot foot. For eventually, it has to be legal to pick up the foot.

WMB

Speaking ASA

The rule is under the heading of a "legal delivery". I take this to mean that all conditions set forth in 7.3 (with the exception of the restrictions on a pitcher's action after the release) must be met until the delivery is complete (release of the pitch).

To me, this would also mean that the pivot foot must remain in contact with the ground (or not higher than the plane of the ground, if a hole exists) until the release of the pitch.

Dragging the pivot foot really isn't required, just permitted. Yes, I know how the rule reads, but are you going to call a pitcher illegal if she can deliver the pitch without losing contact with the pitcher's plate? BTW, I have seen this a few times.

[FUBLUE]

...to call this an illegal pitch. If her plant foot is down, then her weight is on that leg, right?

Coach, you said there was a drag, the "catching air" then a drag. Where is she gaining an advantage? I don't see it as an advantage.

I see it as a pitcher trying not to twist an ankle.

If the plant foot is down, and there is a little "bounce", then I don't think I could ever call it illegal. She's obviously not pushing again. She's obviously not getting that advantage.

WMB said there might be a "hitch in her getty-up" (my phrase). Maybe she's pushing up instead of out too much, causing her to lose contact...happens to a lot of younger pitchers (and smaller pitchers) who push really hard off the pitching plate.

Crucify me, everyone, please, but I ain't calling it (if it is as minute as coach describes).

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by booker227


What these girls (and some coaches) don't understand, is that in reality they lose power and velocity whenever they lose contact with the ground. They lose the power needed to control the ball. True, they may be slightly closer to the batter, but the power generated by the push is missing and therefore they lose torque and speed.

This is one of the best statements as to whay a coach shouldn't want a pitcher to leap etc.
I have worked with coaches in the past and have gotten then to get a radar gun to check on the pitches for speed.

The look on their face is amazing when they realize what the pitcher is losing by that leap or crowhop (which by the way is pretty darn rare around here)

I have also gotten a coach to put on some gear so they can see what the moving pitches are doing and had the pitcher correct their motion with great differences.

The coaches and the pitchers are always amazed.
I have had this talk with D1 coaches (2 of them) and numerous travel ball coaches over the years.

You would think that SOMEONE would share the info with their fellow coaches but they don't for the most part

[WestMichBlue]

"Dragging the pivot foot really isn't required, just permitted."

Agreed. For brevity, I did not say that IF the pivot foot breaks contact with the plate it is required to drag (for Women and JO Girls).

"but are you going to call a pitcher illegal if she can deliver the pitch without losing contact with the pitcher's plate? BTW, I have seen this a few times."

You should have. In the history of FP softball, this is a relatively recent change. Twenty years ago the pivot foot had to remain in contact with the plate until the stride foot had landed. The "leap 'n drag" style of pitching was illegal in the mid-eighties.

Another thought:

Rules editors sometimes change words and you get an entirely different interpretation of the rule. In all the history of FP softball the rule read that there must be a forward step simultaneous with the delivery of the ball. Delivering the ball is a complete set of actions starting with the removal of a hand from to ball to the actual release of the ball.

About ten years ago the word delivery was changed to release! Now we have created a bad rule. It is impossible for a pitcher to step and simultaneously release the ball. Physically the step MUST come prior to the release. The stride foot must land before the ball can be released. Now we have made every pitcher illegal, but nobody calls it because we just read right past that word and assume we know what the rule means, and don't pay any attention to what it actually says. (Untill somebody like Coach brings it up here!)

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
About ten years ago the word delivery was changed to release! Now we have created a bad rule. It is impossible for a pitcher to step and simultaneously release the ball. Physically the step MUST come prior to the release. The stride foot must land before the ball can be released. Now we have made every pitcher illegal, but nobody calls it because we just read right past that word and assume we know what the rule means, and don't pay any attention to what it actually says. (Until somebody like Coach brings it up here!)

WMB

I agree with this, with the notation that this is another in the list of poor editing / wording of a rule. Certainly, the rule writer did not INTEND that the rule be enforced strictly as written, and that the interpretation of the rule continues to treat "release" as a process (same as "delivery") and the step as a process, in the step being "simultaneous" with "release."

Physical "release" from the hand takes a fraction of a second. A step takes much longer.

However, in the interest of the OP, lets not go into a LONG discussion of rule writing skill or lack thereof. Although I do enjoy those discussions from time to time!

Getting back to the OP's question,

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue
No umpire is going to lay on the ground and measure the height. Fact is, they are usually looking elsewhere. So, unless the "leap" is drastic and very visable (ie., more than a couple inches up and starting the drag a foot or more from the plate), it is not going to get called.

This point bears repeating. The umpire is never going to call a minor leap, even if it is technically illegal, because of the practical issues of seeing it.

One thing the ranters on lack of IP calls miss is that the IP penalty is severe with runners on base. No umpire is going to make that call unless he is sure of the call. He cannot (by fact of geometry) be sure of a minor leap. It won't be called by any experienced umpire.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by scottk_61


This is one of the best statements as to whay a coach shouldn't want a pitcher to leap etc.
I have worked with coaches in the past and have gotten then to get a radar gun to check on the pitches for speed.

The look on their face is amazing when they realize what the pitcher is losing by that leap or crowhop (which by the way is pretty darn rare around here)

I am in no manner, way, shape or form very knowledgeable on the subject of physics. However, I once had a prof/coach explain to me that if the ball is released after the non-pivot foot plants, the ball will gain velocity as opposed to releasing prior to that point. I don't know enough to argue the point.

Remember, the drag actually restricts the forward surge of the pitcher and the ball in her hand. I think the thought of TPOAD depends on the millisecond the ball is released.

[scottk_61]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

I am in no manner, way, shape or form very knowledgeable on the subject of physics. However, I once had a prof/coach explain to me that if the ball is released after the non-pivot foot plants, the ball will gain velocity as opposed to releasing prior to that point. I don't know enough to argue the point.

Remember, the drag actually restricts the forward surge of the pitcher and the ball in her hand. I think the thought of TPOAD depends on the millisecond the ball is released.

My viewpoint on it is that the pitcher has to expend so much energy trying to control their body (ie not fall over) that they don't trasfer the available energy into the pitch itself.
But I agree with what you were told, a properly trained pitcher could indeed gain some speed when done properly, the problem is, an athlete with that ability is not likely to happen until they get to the collegiate level.