How would you handle?

[oppool]

Happen last night just wondering how you vets might of handled this situation it was in a Men's D level where anything can and will happen one team is a church team the other is made of young guys (20-30)

I am PU runner coming in home catcher standing on the plate with no play when runner comes across I see a elbow thump to the catcher in the back nothing malicious but diffently contact. I inform the catcher that when he doesnt have the ball that he cant be standing on the plate but didnt say anything to the runner at this time was not sure but only thought the bump was intentional. Next inning same runner coming in to score again this time I have the pitcher and the catcher standing in the area around home but not in the runners base path I also have another runner coming into 3rd and the ball coming into 3rd so I just make a quick qlance at home to make sure runner touches then turn back to 3rd the FU has a runner coming into 2nd watching there anyways after the play this time the pitcher is complaining saying when the runner came by he hit him.


Since I had seen the contact the 1st time but didnt see it the 2nd what I did was pull the runner out of the dugout told him very firmly and only loud enough for him and me to hear is if it happen again he was gone and his team would forfeit since they had no subs and after the inning gave a warning to the team coach on what was going on


What you think guys would you have handled it differently?


Don

[bluezebra]

You should have warned him the first time. In fact, when I saw a runner throw an elbow, no matter the severity, I usually tossed him right then. Those things can escalate until you have a riot on your hands. I had a men's slo-pitch game that ended up in a free-for-all, with the sheriffs and an ambulance having to be called. And this was over an argument about batting out of order. Before I could check the scorebooks, the women keeping score got into it, and the spectators and players joined in. Both teams were thrown out of the league. I just stood back and wrote the incident down on my scorecard, called the league director the next morning, and also wrote a letter. Stop the incidents before they can get worse.

Bob

[IRISHMAFIA]

I'm sort of curious that if you had one runner scoring, and a partner, why you just didn't follow your runner to the plate? I know you want to be available to help your partner, but the most important "touch" is at home base and that should be the priority for a plate umpire.

Of course, the catcher needs to be at least a stride in front of the plate and the pitcher has a multitude of places he should be depending on the direction from which the ball is coming, but none of those positions is anywhere near home plate.

A quick one from my playing days. Early in the game a player rounded 3B and was dead out at the plate. As I waited with the ball, he approached me and at the last second, leaped into the air leading with his feet at chest level. I stepped aside and placed the tag on him as he passed. I turned to the blue and asked if he was going to do anything more than call him out. He said, "No, he didn't mean any harm." I couldn't believe it.

Second game, same umpire, same runner, same situation. Apparantly, someone thinks this guy can run. I've got the ball waiting for him. He does the same he did the previous game. This time I reached out with hand and ball in my glove and swept his legs. He landed on his shoulder and was done for the day. The blue ejected me. My statement was, "But blue, I didn't mean any harm." We won the game, so a protest wasn't necessary. However, my ejection was reversed and the automatic two-game suspension was lifted. The umpire was pissed because I made him look bad. I told him if he took care of business in the first game when I asked him, the second situation probably would never have occured.

If possible, even if not in the form of a "warning", let the player know you saw something you didn't care for and may not be so generous in the future.

[oppool]

Mike

This was slow-pitch with runners on 1st and 2nd on the pitch the BU in the B slot between 1st and 2nd his responibility was the BR to 2nd my responibility was R1 and R2 on the play position in foul territory between 3rd and home and since there was no play at home but a play at 3rd on R2 he was my main focus

Am I missing something or was this not the correct mechanics for slow-pitch??

I too now in after sight believe I should of said something to the runner the 1st time but at the moment believe the best preventive umpiring was to talk to the catcher and advised with no play and no ball to get off the plate then resumed game.

Thanks

Don

[Edited by oppool on May 12th, 2001 at 06:51 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Don,

I do not know for what sanctioning body you were working, bu speaking for ASA, fast or slow pitch, is in multirunner situations, the PU has the lead runner and the BU has everyone else.

The Plate mechanics allow the PU to drift toward 3rd if there is no play at home, but must keep his/her attention to the lead runner touching home. Once that happens, then the PU should turn his attention toward 3B to pick-up the new lead runner.

Action at home plate, whether on a play or appeal, is the most important on the field as it determines a score. The PU cannot worry about 3B until his assigned runner has touched the plate.

The problem with heading toward 3B is in case of a mis-play, either at 3B or maybe a fielder kicks or drops a relay. You're heading toward 3B and all of a sudden this runner is streaking by you and here comes a throw to the plate. Well, no matter agile you may be, most likely you are not going to be in the proper position to make that call on a banger.

Another bad thing is when you have a hustling BU taking the trailing runner into 3B then s/he notices the PU more than halfway up the line. BANG! There's the play and the BU hesitates, not knowing whether the PU is going to make a call or not. Regardless of whether the call is right or not, the crew just placed some doubt in the team's heads.

Yes, this requires the BU to hustle his/her *** off when there are multiple runners in scoring position, but that is just part of the game and the job one is being paid to do.

Of course, much of this can be avoided, with ASA's blessing, by the umpire crew constantly communicating. There have been many a time when I see my partner get hung-up outside the diamond on a play. I'll tell him, "I've got the bases" as I come out from behind the plate reverting to a one-man system. At this point, I will expect to hear, "I'll get the plate" from my partner. If I don't, I know I've got everything and I damn well better get a thank you from my partner d:-)

Mike

[oppool]

Mike,

2 MAN MECHANICS


The PLATE UMPIRE, if there are two runners on base and the next batter hits for extra bases which will score the lead runner without a play, the PLATE UMPIRE pays little attention (to the lead runner) other than noting that the runner touched third base and the plate. The BASE UMPIRE meanwhile ascertains that all runners touch second and first bases and takes whatever play is made on the batter-runner

Pg. 225 ASA rule book 2001

Slow pitch Mechanics

The PLATE umpire takes all plays at 3RD except

1.BU takes BR into 3rd

2. If there is a close play at home then a play at 3rd the BU should make the call at 3rd

pg232 ASA rule book 2001

To me this sound exactly what I have described as the mechanics in the above situation. Tell me what you are seeing different


Don

[IRISHMAFIA]

ASA 2001 Rules Book
Page 232 Two-Umpire System - Slow Pitch

FIELD UMPIRE

2. Under normal conditions, all calls at third base will be made by the plate umpire with the following exceptions:

a. The batter-runner on a triple with no runners on base at
the start of the pitch.
b. All trail runners into third base. <====================
c. Any lone runner on a fly ball advancement.
d. Any return throw from the plate or a cut-off play.


Yes, in the two-umpire system, the plate umpire must be prepared to take responsibility for bases other than home. While anticipation of a play is very important to all umpires, you are still responsible for any type of action around the plate. There are many umpires that just take for granted that if there is no play at the plate, the runner will just glide in and touch the slab of rubber without event. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen that way, especially when there are defensive players who are not well versed in their positioning.

The priorities on observations and calls start with home and rotate clockwise around the bases. While the priorities may force an umpire to be watching a multitude of things at one time, "Sorry, coach, I just didn't see it" really isn't acceptable in the home plate area.


Mike

[oppool]

Mike

Sounds like to me we have a conflict in the rule book and maybe you teach it different in your chapter but in ours we are told all runners coming into 3rd except the BR is the PU responbility and as stated in the rule book and as I stated in the original post since there was no play at home my observation of the lead runner was to make sure he properly touched the bases and my main focus was on the ball and the play being made at 3rd cant see where this was improper mechanics on how I was taught or how stated in the rule book but will agree that the rule book should gave a better clarification on who makes the call on trail runner into 3rd so you dont have one umpire calling safe and the other out.

Also rule book clearly says paying little attention to the lead runner in these circumstances not that all or most attention should be on the lead runner until he touches home then turning to the ball and the play that is being made at 3rd.

What if as in most times runner coming home decides to walk or do this little trot into home when there is no play are you telling me I should only being watching this and ignoring everything else that is happening until this runner touches home

Also if these two things are happening at about the same time (the extra activity at home and a play at 3rd) I myself would much rather explain to the defensive coach how I missed the extra activity at home than the tag by his F5 at third.

One more thing and I am through venting the rule book talking about FU taking all trail runners on base to 3rd I believe and could be wrong it is talking the last runner running which in this post would be the BR into 2nd not R2 going into 3rd if they are talking about all trail runners behind the lead runner then the FU has one hell of job when bases are loaded and the lead runner decides to walk in.

JMHO

Don

[Edited by oppool on May 13th, 2001 at 01:12 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Don,

I think the book is quite clear. It definitely says ALL trailing runners and that is exactly how I have been taught at the state and national level.

Yes, the preface to the Two-Umpire System states that there is little attention paid to the runner approaching home when there is no apparant play. That means that the umpire doesn't need to stay back and position him/herself for a play that probably isn't going to happen. The PU should locate the ball in the field and see if his/her partner is okay getting to where s/he needs to be, but when that lead runner is approaching the plate or vicinity of defensive players, his/her attention must be focused there.

If you think explaining to a defensive manager about a tag at 3B might be difficult, try explaining to him why you didn't see the runner miss the plate because you may have been distracted by the actions of a fielder or runner in the field and you didn't glance back in time. I saw it happen in a three-umpire system. The PU was watching the ball on the way in from the outfield and it was a high throw. By the time he turned back to the plate the runner was already heading toward the dugout with the discarded bat in his hand. Nearly 200 people saw him miss the plate, but they umpire had no idea.

Anytime a runner lolligags between bases is the most likely time a defender will make that unanticipated throw and catch everyone offguard, including the blue.

Well, I can't argue what and how you were taught since I wasn't there. Like I said before, as long as the crew communicates, they can basically change coverage on every play.

Just one question though. What happens if the BU doesn't get inside quickly assuming there is no play at home and the PU will have 3rd covered. But while he is watching the BR touch 1B, the runner slips and the defender uncorks one toward home. Obviously, you have to stay there. The ball is cut for a quick throw back to 3B for a banger. Somebody is going to be upset, no matter who makes the call.

JMHO

[oppool]

Mike

It does state in the rule book when using 2 man mechanics 90% of the situations that will ordinarily arise may be adequately covered. In your play maybe one of those 10% that cant.

Now missing a touch by home and missing some extra activity that might happen before or after the runner touches home I believe is two different things but I did state in my post I did catch the lead runner touching home what I did miss is what ever extra activity that happen after the runner touched when I had a catcher and a pitcher in the vicinity but not in the runners path. I would agree with you that since the 1st time this runner came in, there was noted extra activity if possible I should of let my attention stay there for a second or two longer to see if anything happen this time but even if I saw the activity I dont think I would of handled it any different unless I ruled it malicious and by the pitcher reaction after the play I didnt believe it was malicious but there was contact, something like I had seen the 1st time but this time there was noone in the basepath which I believe warranted at least the warning.

As for the way we work the 2 man mechinacs which is real close to the rule book I believe it works really well do not ever remember a situation on this. The PU covers 3rd except BU responibility on BR. I know I will say this in next game will bite me in the butt but I believe it takes away any of those both umps making different call on the same play.

Also like to say I work very hard on my mechinacs and being in the right place at the right time to make the proper call which I believe is a rarity in slow-pitch I see to many umps that their feet are stuck and say it doesnt matter it just slow-pitch so I did take a little offense when you said I screwed up the mechanics on the play but will take your suggestion to heart and try to remember the suggestions next time I find myself in this situation.

As for the book being very clear on ALL TRAIL RUNNER into 3rd being the BU job. I think it also VERY CLEAR that it is the PU is responible in slow-pitch for all calls at 3rd except for the BR or when a play happens at home 1st on a lead runner then a play goes to third. That were I believe there is a conflict in the rule book and you will have 2 umpires making the call!!


JMHO

Don

[Edited by oppool on May 13th, 2001 at 07:44 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, Don, it isn't worth taking up everyone else's space and time with this.

I am very comfortable with the manner in which we teach the mechanics at our state school and will continue to use them in that manner.

Now, let's start discussing the "between inning" mechanics for base umpires on page 242. Read the description and then look at the drawings to the right.

This is the 3rd year they have not matched, so which is correct?

d:-)