In jeopardy after touching home?

[Dakota]

R1 advancing from 2B to home. She scores. She thinks she missed 3rd base, but in fact she touched 3rd. She retouches home and attempt to return to 3rd and is tagged before get reaches third.

Is she out?

Change the scenario slightly.

ASA 10U R1 advancing from 2B on a steal attempt. Ball from F2 is overthrown and goes into LF. R1 advances to home. She scores. Coach sends her back to 3rd, since she was not eligible to advance home on the play. She retouches home and attempts to return to 3rd and is tagged before get reaches third.

Is she out?

Explain.

[AtlUmpSteve]

In scenario #1, the runner puts herself in jeopardy by returning to the base paths. She is out in the play you posed.

In scenario #2, the same ruling might be thought to apply. However, the approved mechanic is for the umpire to kill the play once the runner safely attains a base she cannot legally attain, assuming all other play has ceased. In your scenario, there are no other runners, so it would be appropriate for the plate umpire to call "dead ball" as soon as the runner safely touches home.

So, if the umpire kills the play, the runner must be returned safely to third. If the umpire does not kill the play (and the Rule 8.4-H does not require that dead ball be called as soon as the base is attained), then the runner is off base, and in jeopardy, same as scenario #1.

[mcrowder]

No, in both scenarios, there is no out. The only way the runner in sitch 1 can be out after crossing home plate is on a valid appeal. Since she did not actually miss any base, there is no valid appeal to be made. Her subsequent actions have no effect on this play.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by orangeump
a runner cannot touch the base after the base missed and go back and touch.

If the BR misses first, touches second base and realizes then that first base was missed, too bad. Cant happen. Please apply this comment to your scenarios and figure out the outcome. I dont wanna make this too long!

You are incorrect for ASA rules.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally posted by orangeump
a runner cannot touch the base after the base missed and go back and touch.

If the BR misses first, touches second base and realizes then that first base was missed, too bad. Cant happen. Please apply this comment to your scenarios and figure out the outcome. I dont wanna make this too long!

Really? Where in the rule book did you find this? Please cite the rule or case book play which supports that statement.

To the contrary, a runner can retrack to touch a missed base, or retouch one left too soon on a caught fly, as long as they also retouch any intermediate bases. Good play.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by orangeump
a runner cannot touch the base after the base missed and go back and touch.

If the BR misses first, touches second base and realizes then that first base was missed, too bad. Cant happen. Please apply this comment to your scenarios and figure out the outcome. I dont wanna make this too long!

As long as the ball remains live, a baserunner should be able to retrace as many bases as necessary to correct a missed base. I.E. If a batter hits a triple and misses 1st, once they arrive at 3rd they can still go back an touch 1st provided the ball is still live and the play is still in progress.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[greymule]

In ASA, even if the ball had become dead, the runner can correct a baserunning error. It is only if the runner advances to the next base after the award is made that he cannot return to correct an error. Example: Abel gets a long hit, misses 1B, touches 2B, and is sliding into 3B but still short of the bag when the throw goes into DBT.

Now, with Abel safe at 3B, the umpire awards Abel home. Abel can still return to correct the miss of 1B, and then advance to home. However, if Abel first advanced to home (after the award), he could not then correct his error. This particular ASA rule is fairly recent (two, three years ago).

Note than in Fed, unless Fed has made some rule change I don't know about, the runner could not return. In fact, I believe that even if Abel had reversed direction and was running back toward 2B in an attempt to correct his miss of 1B when the ball went into DBT, he would not be legally allowed to correct the error.

(For anyone interested in the parallel play in baseball, in OBR the runner could not return, because he touched 3B after the ball became dead.)

In the original situation, once you have legally scored, there's nothing you can do to nullify your run. Example: Abel on 3B, no out. Baker hits a fly ball. Abel tags up at 3B and scores. Then, in the mistaken belief that he left too soon, he runs back to 3B and remains there. The umpire is to take Abel off the base and award the run.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by greymule
In ASA, even if the ball had become dead, the runner can correct a baserunning error. It is only if the runner advances to the next base after the award is made that he cannot return to correct an error. Example: Abel gets a long hit, misses 1B, touches 2B, and is sliding into 3B but still short of the bag when the throw goes into DBT.

Now, with Abel safe at 3B, the umpire awards Abel home. Abel can still return to correct the miss of 1B, and then advance to home. However, if Abel first advanced to home (after the award), he could not then correct his error. This particular ASA rule is fairly recent (two, three years ago).

Note than in Fed, unless Fed has made some rule change I don't know about, the runner could not return. In fact, I believe that even if Abel had reversed direction and was running back toward 2B in an attempt to correct his miss of 1B when the ball went into DBT, he would not be legally allowed to correct the error.

(For anyone interested in the parallel play in baseball, in OBR the runner could not return, because he touched 3B after the ball became dead.)

In the original situation, once you have legally scored, there's nothing you can do to nullify your run. Example: Abel on 3B, no out. Baker hits a fly ball. Abel tags up at 3B and scores. Then, in the mistaken belief that he left too soon, he runs back to 3B and remains there. The umpire is to take Abel off the base and award the run.

Question regarding the ASA ruling ...

In your example above, the umpire would initially award the runner home. If, prior to advancing home, the runner retraced back and touched 1st, would the umpire still award the runner home, or, would he update that award to 3rd?

Just wondering.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Dakota]

Originally posted by David Emerling
Question regarding the ASA ruling ...

In your example above, the umpire would initially award the runner home. If, prior to advancing home, the runner retraced back and touched 1st, would the umpire still award the runner home, or, would he update that award to 3rd?

Just wondering.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

ASA.

The award is based on the position of the runner at the time of the throw, not "last base legally touched" as sometimes is claimed. So long as the runner does not advance to an awarded base (after the award is announced), the runner may return to retouch during the dead ball. It has no effect on the awarded base.

[Dakota]

In the opening situation in this thread, what I was poking for was...

Is there a difference between the ruling at 10U for a runner realizing she has advanced home when she was not entitled to and a runner at any age division thinking she needed to retouch when she did not need to?

If the 10U runner does not attempt to return, she is "safe" (having touched home) but has not scored. Does she place herself back in jeopardy by attempting to return?

I was surprised to see some state that the player places herself back in jeopardy by retouching home and attempting to return to touch 3rd for the mistaken missed base situation. She might be guilty of interference, but otherwise, I can't see how she would place herself in jeopardy.

[Edited by Dakota on Nov 10th, 2005 at 10:23 AM]

[mcrowder]

By rule if a runner has touched all bases and touched home, she has scored. She cannot UNscore by retracing her steps.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by mcrowder
By rule if a runner has touched all bases and touched home, she has scored. She cannot UNscore by retracing her steps.

In ASA, you can.

Example, runner on 2B and a fair batted ball rolls to the RF corner. R1 misses 3B and crosses the plate. R1 returns to 3B, but by this time, the ball has reached the infield.

R1 stays at 3B. If she did not retouch home base, she is subject to be out on a legal appeal.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
By rule if a runner has touched all bases and touched home, she has scored. She cannot UNscore by retracing her steps.

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Example, runner on 2B and a fair batted ball rolls to the RF corner. R1 misses 3B and crosses the plate. R1 returns to 3B, but by this time, the ball has reached the infield.

R1 stays at 3B. If she did not retouch home base, she is subject to be out on a legal appeal.

Different, right?

Or, maybe you are getting at the order of the touch. In your situation, the runner touched 3rd after having touched home, so while technically it meets mcrowder's statement, that is not what I read him to mean.

[mcrowder]

Yes, I meant in order.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota

Different, right?

Or, maybe you are getting at the order of the touch. In your situation, the runner touched 3rd after having touched home, so while technically it meets mcrowder's statement, that is not what I read him to mean.

She did touch them in order. Remember, in ASA, if you passed the base, you legally touched it. Point being that mcrowder's general statement though valid, by rule isn't necessarily true.

Of course, then you have the possibility of drawing a throw which, if there are other runners, could be INT.