Illegal pitch?

[David Emerling]

I was going through my archive of old photos and videoclips and stumbled across something I'd like to get an opinion on from you experts.

This was taken 2 years ago in a 16U tournament in Franklin, TN (near Nashville).

My role was that of assistant coach for my daughter's team.

The videoclip is that of the opposing pitcher. It's the top of the 1st inning.

We watched this young lady pitching all weekend and we were all of the opinion that her natural delivery is completely illegal.

Before the game started, while the opposing pitcher was finishing her warm-ups, I gave the PU a heads-up that we were going to challenge the legality of her delivery the moment she throws a strike or retires one of our hitters. He seemed uninterested.

Sure enough, the first pitch she threw was fouled off by our leadoff hitter. Our head coach requested time and challenged the legality of the pitcher's delivery. The umpire said that she was "fine." There wasn't much we could do after that and had to live with it. Oh well.

Here's her delivery:
http://www.emerling22.com/softball_v...egal_pitch.mov

I don't want to influence you so I won't tell you WHY we thought her delivery was illegal.

I understand that it would take a lot of courage to rule this illegal because it's almost certain that this young lady would not be able to make the adjustment to make it legal. She's probably been throwing that way for a very long time. It's a habit that she would not be able to break at that moment.

By ruling her delivery illegal, the umpire would, in effect, be forcing the other team to change pitchers. And that's why it takes a lot of courage.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 6th, 2005 at 08:48 PM]

[azdist3blue]

David,

It appears from the small video that she is not throwing under hand but side arm.

Paul

[WestMichBlue]

Her wrist is well outside her elbow at delivery. Illegal pitch!

However, I saw that only from a video clip in stop-motion. I am not sure that I would ever see that from the PU position. The major problem with IP issues is that some people can stand off to the side and watch nothing but a pitcher's hands or feet. Umpires have different angles and so many things to focus on that, unless an action is blatent, it is often not caught. And not called.

WMB

[TexBlue]

Illegal Pitch. Call it. I can't find anywhere in the Rule Book where it states it isn't illegal if you have to remove the pitcher due to her inability to alter her delivery to a legal pitch. Of course, you'll probably fall off a few Christmas Card lists, but it's illegal, call it.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Her wrist is well outside her elbow at delivery. Illegal pitch!

However, I saw that only from a video clip in stop-motion. I am not sure that I would ever see that from the PU position. The major problem with IP issues is that some people can stand off to the side and watch nothing but a pitcher's hands or feet. Umpires have different angles and so many things to focus on that, unless an action is blatent, it is often not caught. And not called.

WMB

I'll agree that it is sometimes difficult to catch a subtle irregularity in a particular pitch.

But this is how this young lady pitched EVERY PITCH. If, as the PU, you had some doubt as to what you might have just seen ... just watch the *next* pitch!

I think the oddness of her pitching motion offends the eyes and simply LOOKS wrong. It's the type of pitching motion where you can see the *something* is wrong ... so you look closer. Then you see it!

She's practically throwing SIDEARM!

The rules stipulate that the wrist can be no further from the body than the elbow. Her wrist is MUCH further. It's not even "slight".

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Illegal Pitch. Call it. I can't find anywhere in the Rule Book where it states it isn't illegal if you have to remove the pitcher due to her inability to alter her delivery to a legal pitch. Of course, you'll probably fall off a few Christmas Card lists, but it's illegal, call it.

I don't believe an umpire can remove (eject) a pitcher simply because she is throwing an illegal pitch. There is already a specific penalty for that violation.

After a few "illegal pitches" in a row, the coach will certainly remove the pitcher.

So, calling a series of illegal pitches is tantamount to having the pitcher removed, although it's the COACH who does the removing once he is convinced that EVERY pitch by his pitcher is going to result in a "ball" call.

The fact of the matter is that this girl actually threw quite hard. She had good velocity. And why wouldn't she? She's almost throwing it like a baseball.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[WestMichBlue]

I think the oddness of her pitching motion offends the eyes and simply LOOKS wrong. It's the type of pitching motion where you can see the *something* is wrong ... so you look closer. Then you see it!

That is the point, David - it looks wrong! But unless you slow down the video you cannot find the illegal action. I think that it might be very difficult for the umpire on the field to call IP because something "looks wrong!"

Do you remember what you said to the umpire two years ago? Was it "her hand is outside her elbow?" Or simply "she's pitching sidearm?"

I would reject the "sidearm" description, even as you use it today. Her elbow is tucked in to the body and her hand is below the hip (satisfying the other part of that pitching delivery rule). With a baseball type sidearm delivery the elbow would extend out from the body and the hand may or may not be above the hip.

Actually, most FP pitcher's hands are going to be outside the elbow on many pitches. With this girl it is just a little more pronounced.

The original FP rule (hand below the hip and not more than 6” from body) was written to prevent the baseball style sidearm delivery. Eventually the 6” part was eliminated in favor of the “not further than elbow” requirement. (Probably to help umpires that do not carry tape measures! )
I think this girl probably satisfies the “intent” of the rule.

Besides, as a coach I would never challenge this pitcher. With that delivery she cannot throw any changeups, risers, etc. And most pitches are going to slide away to the outside. I would simply teach my batters to “sit on the fastball” near the middle of the plate and “tee off.”

WMB

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I think the oddness of her pitching motion offends the eyes and simply LOOKS wrong. It's the type of pitching motion where you can see the *something* is wrong ... so you look closer. Then you see it!

That is the point, David - it looks wrong! But unless you slow down the video you cannot find the illegal action. I think that it might be very difficult for the umpire on the field to call IP because something "looks wrong!"

Do you remember what you said to the umpire two years ago? Was it "her hand is outside her elbow?" Or simply "she's pitching sidearm?"

I would reject the "sidearm" description, even as you use it today. Her elbow is tucked in to the body and her hand is below the hip (satisfying the other part of that pitching delivery rule). With a baseball type sidearm delivery the elbow would extend out from the body and the hand may or may not be above the hip.

Actually, most FP pitcher's hands are going to be outside the elbow on many pitches. With this girl it is just a little more pronounced.

The original FP rule (hand below the hip and not more than 6” from body) was written to prevent the baseball style sidearm delivery. Eventually the 6” part was eliminated in favor of the “not further than elbow” requirement. (Probably to help umpires that do not carry tape measures! )
I think this girl probably satisfies the “intent” of the rule.

Besides, as a coach I would never challenge this pitcher. With that delivery she cannot throw any changeups, risers, etc. And most pitches are going to slide away to the outside. I would simply teach my batters to “sit on the fastball” near the middle of the plate and “tee off.”

WMB

We had watched this girl pitch against other teams prior to playing them and her pitching style just looked so awkward.

And then, as we watched a few more pitches we noticed what it was. Her arm is extended much further out to the side than we are used to seeing. And then, as we watched even more, it became completely obviously what was so odd ... her wrist is nearly A FOOT AND A HALF away from her body! Whatever the length of her forearm was, *THAT* was how far her wrist was from her body. We considered it excessive.

What you say is true - her elbow actually is tucked in close but her wrist/hand is WAY out there, in a sidearm-like motion. Very unusual.

Although, some pitchers "cheat" a little bit when they throw a curveball and deliver the ball with their wrist a little further out then their elbow. But this girl does it on every pitch.

* * *

The way we handled it was as follows.

1. The other team was the Home team. As they took the field in the 1st inning, and while their pitcher was taking her preliminary warm-ups, we approached the umpire to inform him that it was OUR OPINION that the pitcher had an illegal delivery and that he could expect us to challenge it as soon as she threw a strike or retired one of our batters. (Also, the reason we did this was to give the umpire the opportunity to observe this pitcher during warm-ups and, perhaps, decide at this time if she was pitching illegally.)

2. The umpire basically gave us a shrug of the shoulders.

3. The first pitch of the game was fouled off. We requested time.

4. Our head coach approached the PU and asked for a ruling on the legality of her delivery, claiming that she was essentially "throwing sidearm" and that her "wrist was further out than her elbow."

5. The umpire did not engage in any lengthy discussion and simply said, "It looks fine to me." And that was it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:53 AM]

[Dakota]

About the video:

With the angle of the camera, and the slow frame rate of the video (15 fps at best, maybe even less), I cannot definitely say this particular pitcher was pitching sidearm.

The one frame with her arm apparently in a sidearm position, also has her arm apparently behind her body. The very next frame has the ball released.

Her body is very twisted, which may give the appearance of a sidearm delivery that is not actually there, or it may actually be a sidearm delivery - I can't tell from the video.

On the main rules point of the discussion, however, with enough repetition, the umpire certainly should have been able to make a determination. I think your coach probably protested too soon, forcing a ruling by the umpire too soon. At most, your coach may have been better served to remind the umpire of what you are seeing, acknowledge that it is an unusual and maybe difficult to judge motion, and ask that we watch closely.

A sidearm deliver is illegal, regardless of the team's personnel situation. A slight movement of the wrist away from the body for certain pitches is not illegal.

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by David Emerling

We had watched this girl pitch against other teams prior to playing them and her pitching style just looked so awkward.

And then, as we watched a few more pitches we noticed what it was. Her arm is extended much further out to the side than we are used to seeing. And then, as we watched even more, it became completely obviously what was so odd ... her wrist is nearly A FOOT AND A HALF away from her body! Whatever the length of her forearm was, *THAT* was how far her wrist was from her body. We considered it excessive.

What you say is true - her elbow actually is tucked in close but her wrist/hand is WAY out there, in a sidearm-like motion. Very unusual.

Although, some pitchers "cheat" a little bit when they throw a curveball and deliver the ball with their wrist a little further out then their elbow. But this girl does it on every pitch.

* * *

The way we handled it was as follows.

1. The other team was the Home team. As they took the field in the 1st inning, and while their pitcher was taking her preliminary warm-ups, we approached the umpire to inform him that it was OUR OPINION that the pitcher had an illegal delivery and that he could expect us to challenge it as soon as she threw a strike or retired one of our batters. (Also, the reason we did this was to give the umpire the opportunity to observe this pitcher during warm-ups and, perhaps, decide at this time if she was pitching illegally.)

2. The umpire basically gave us a shrug of the shoulders.

3. The first pitch of the game was fouled off. We requested time.

4. Our head coach approached the PU and asked for a ruling on the legality of her delivery, claiming that she was essentially "throwing sidearm" and that her "wrist was further out than her elbow."

5. The umpire did not engage in any lengthy discussion and simply said, "It looks fine to me." And that was it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[Edited by David Emerling on Nov 7th, 2005 at 10:53 AM]

You're right about the frame rate. Based on that alone it is difficult to categorically ascertain the illegal nature of the pitch.

So, in that regard, you'll just have to trust me. If you interpolate between one frame and another you can assume that she connected those two arm positions with a sidearm-like motion.

The pitcher leans to her left while delivering to "balance" herself because of the extreme nature of the sidearm action. She is basically whipping the ball at the batter from the side. The spin on the ball was very atypical, much more like a frisbee - it wasn't even an attempt to throw a curveball. This was her natural fastball motion. The ball was spinning INTO a right-handed batter. If it were an attempt to throw a curveball, it would have been spinning in the *opposite* direction. The ball didn't have any unusual movement to speak of. It was just FAST!

Although mechanically incorrect - she had it perfected!

* * *

Anyway, I thought you all might enjoy looking at it and determining whether you thought it was legal or not.

Our team didn't whine about the ruling. We gave it a shot ... lost ... and just continued to play. In fact, we never mentioned the issue to our players because we didn't want it to be a distraction. They never knew the issue or thought anything unusual about the way the girl was pitching.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[CelticNHBlue]

I have to add that the cameral angle, IMO and as Dakota mentioned, hinders our ability to see just how far her wrist is away from her body. I believe that the plate umpire had a nice view of this and had his own reasons for not making the call. On the other hand, the original post states that she was seen at other fields all weekend. That tells me that no one was calling her illegal. So, maybe we jump to another thread about illegal pitches not being called as instructed by tournament UICs. We don't know what the umpire was directed or not directed to look for or let go at this tournament. I also have to agree with Dakota that maybe you didn't give the umpire a little freedom to make the call (even though you pointed it out during her warm-ups). You may have stole his thunder for all we know.

[whaddayouknow]

Originally posted by CelticNHBlue
...even though you pointed it out during her warm-ups...

To All (not meaning to highjack the thread): What are your responses to a coach that does this? I usually blow them off thinking, the games not even started and we've got a whiner already.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by David Emerling
[I don't believe an umpire can remove (eject) a pitcher simply because she is throwing an illegal pitch. There is already a specific penalty for that violation.

After a few "illegal pitches" in a row, the coach will certainly remove the pitcher.

So, calling a series of illegal pitches is tantamount to having the pitcher removed, although it's the COACH who does the removing once he is convinced that EVERY pitch by his pitcher is going to result in a "ball" call.

The fact of the matter is that this girl actually threw quite hard. She had good velocity. And why wouldn't she? She's almost throwing it like a baseball.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Yeah, that was kinda my point to the post.