Need a Rule Interpretation

Blu_IN · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 03, 2005, 06:12pm

NCAA Rules. Runner on third.

Batter-runner hits a ground ball to F6. F6 throws to first. The throw is low and F3 cannot hold onto the ball and the ball rolls away. Clearly a safe and I do not signal anything. The batter-runner believes that F3 caught the ball and thinks she is out. She heads for the 3rd base dugout and is approximately half way between home plate and 1st base. The defense realizes the batter-runner is off the base, grabs the ball and tags her.

I ruled this as an out and would like to hear what you all think about this situation. I ruled that batter-runner had liability to be put out in this case. The rule that allows a batter-runner to run through first did not apply to this particular situation. This was a mistake made by the offensive player.

whiskers_ump · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 03, 2005, 06:56pm

I also have an out.

bluezebra · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 12:12am

Why did you not signal, and verbalize, SAFE?

Bob

debeau · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 02:22am

The way you describe it I too have an out .
You cant signal anything as the BR has not completed her running . You have to wait for the end of the play .
In this case a tag which you indicated as an out .

Great to see you back on the board whiskers_ump .
From all Umpires in New Zealand .

Blu_IN · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 02:24am

The ball was not caught by F3 and the ball rolled away, well clear of the first base area. Since when do we signal a safe on these types of situations?

debeau · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 02:38am

BLU_IN What are you doing up at this hour ?
At least here in New Zealand it is 8.40 pm . Nearly bed time

Blu_IN · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 02:40am

Couldn't sleep.

AtlUmpSteve · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 07:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
Why did you not signal, and verbalize, SAFE?

Bob

No ball, no call.

Besides, what is that base coach doing over there other than signaling "safe" on every play? Sounds like a team problem they need to address, not a umpire issue.

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 07:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by AtlUmpSteve

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
Why did you not signal, and verbalize, SAFE?

Bob

No ball, no call.

Besides, what is that base coach doing over there other than signaling "safe" on every play? Sounds like a team problem they need to address, not a umpire issue.

I agree. The offense has a coach right there to instruct the runner.

However, my ASA training is going to come out here. As a matter of preventive umpiring, even if I see the ball missed or rolling away, and the runner seems to be searching for an idea of what just happened, I will offer a mild safe and signal. You know, sometimes the ball comes out of the glove toward you and the coach cannot see the ball on the ground. As umpires, when this happens we ocassionally have to ask for help when the ball is on the other side of the play, so I see no problem in providing the coach with the same courtesy when necessary.

kcs_hiker · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 07:51am

did the runner stop before reaching 1st base and then head towards the dugout? If so.. out. If she ran through the base, then started towards the dugout, isn't she protected unless she makes an attempt to advance to 2nd?

And yes the base coach needs to get his/her thumb out.

kcs

baldgriff · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 10:43am

OK - I am confused here maybe I am not reading this correctly.

Did the runner get to first base? Was there a play involving the runner at first? I guess I am trying to figure out why there was no signal of safe, if the runner had made it to first.

I can understand not making a call if the runner stopped on the way to first, but why would you not make a call if the runner was at first?

IRISHMAFIA · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by baldgriff
OK - I am confused here maybe I am not reading this correctly.

Did the runner get to first base? Was there a play involving the runner at first? I guess I am trying to figure out why there was no signal of safe, if the runner had made it to first.

I can understand not making a call if the runner stopped on the way to first, but why would you not make a call if the runner was at first?

See Steve's post above. No ball, no call. This is the mechanic being taught at the upper levels of play.

tzme415 · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 01:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

See Steve's post above. No ball, no call. This is the mechanic being taught at the upper levels of play.

That is good to know. I have been making the safe call on dropped balls. Does this only apply to 1st or also bases where a force would be in effect?

baldgriff · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 01:23pm

So if there is a play at 1st and 1B drops the ball you dont even make a call?

Why would that be the preferred technique? Is the runner to assume that they are safe if there is not a call?

Andy · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 04, 2005, 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by baldgriff
So if there is a play at 1st and 1B drops the ball you dont even make a call?

Why would that be the preferred technique? Is the runner to assume that they are safe if there is not a call?

The theory is (correct me if I'm wrong, Mike)that if the ball is rolling around loose on the field where everybody can see it, there is no need for a call. We don't give a safe signal on a fly ball that clearly hits the ground in the outfield.

However, as Mike alluded to, if the ball just pops out of F3's glove and is lying on the ground near her feet where it is not clearly visible to everyone, a verbal call and signal is required.