white sox/angels 3SD mechanics issue

[chuck chopper]

I did not see it, however on the BB board there is discussion about the proper mechanic the HP ump used or should have used..so here is the question. After a plate umpire makes a "strike 3" call on a 3rd strike dropped, should we then follow it up with (A) a safe signal-no verbal
or (B) a strike 3 call & then a delayed dead ball signal-no verbal, or (C) some other signal or perhaps just stand there and see what happens.

[JEL]

I remember this being discussed here before.

Somewhere in the ASA manual we are told that on a D3K where 1B is occupied to give a verbal "batter is out". I do this when the batter attempts to run after a D3K when no advance is possible. (either a POE, or in the umpire manual section)

In all other instances, I call the third strike in the normal way, then just wait to see what happens. Either an attempt to advance will happen, or batter will enter the dugout. There is nothing to signal, the batter is neither safe nor out, nor is there a DDB situation.

What do you do if that D3K gets loose and goes into dead ball territory?

[WestMichBlue]

A visual signal (arm pump) only indicates that a strike has been called. I always call the batter out on a caught 3K, or un-caught 3K if runner on 1B and < 2 outs. This insures that the batter and catcher (the only ones that need to know) are aware of the situation. Absent any vocal out call, the batter better be running and the catcher better be tagging or throwing.

If I do not call the out, I will just stand there until the batter is legally put out (by leaving the field or being tagged or 1B tagged, or any forced runner being put out).

The verbal out call is supported by the ASA Umpire's Manual for JO FP though I don't know why it would not be valid for adult men and women's FP.

This technique must be used in MLB. In papers today, Chicago's batter last night is quoted as saying the umpire did not call him out so he took off for 1st base. OTOH, the Angel's catcher said that he did not hear the umpire say "no catch" so he threw the ball on the ground to the mound. Maybe their mechanics are too complex, though because of the long distance to 1B they have more time to sort it out. For SB I would not advocate the "no catch" call. Either call the out or be silent; let the players figure it out.

WMB

[chuck chopper]

I currently say strike three. I do not say batter out unless we have 1st occupied, with less then 2 outs. I make no extra signal. I feel I need to call the pitch & being silent is not proper.

[Rattlehead]

I did the same thing in one of my first games this year. It stuck in the back of head all year long and made me think every time I had a D3K situation.

After looking at the video I don't belive the PU saw the ball hit the ground bacause he signaled the strike, and then gave a hammer signal.

The way I was told to handle this situation is to make the strike signal and react to what the players do, if the players play out a D3K then work the play and if the are any questions talk to your partner for confirmation.

My 1st year doing FP is almost over and it's amazing how much I thought I knew, that I really didn't.

[Little Jimmy]

On a D3K (or a suspected one) I raise the right arm to the 45 degree angle, call "strike", and leave the arm in the air for a moment until something does or does not happen. I do not bring the arm down in front of me in the hammer style. If I throw the hammer down that means we have a catch and the batter is out. If retired runner starts to run then I'll verbalize "batter's out".

[MDblue]

When I have a dropped third strike, I make no signal. If it is a swinging D3S, then everyone knows the batter swung and the ball was dropped. If it is a called 3rd, then I do give the verbal call.

If first base is occupied in the situations where the batter cannot advance to first base (less than 2 outs), I DO verbalize "batter's out" loud enough that at least the batter and catcher can hear me.

[NDblue]

In the Sox/Angels game that this thread is referenced to, the HP was wrong in not calling "batter out". He signaled strike and then threw a hammer indicating the batter was out. The ball did not hit the dirt and if he had any feeling that it did, he should have asked for help from 1BU or 3BU because they had a better angle on the pitch. The catcher knew he caught the ball without it touching the ground after it touched his glove. If I remember my baseball rules correctly, it doesn't matter if the ball touched the ground prior to touching the catcher. This rule only applies if it hits any part of the catcher and "then" hits the ground. If it hits the ground and then into the catchers mitt, same thing as if he caught it to begin with. In this instance, it didn't matter since the ball never touched the ground until the catcher tossed the ball back to the mound.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by NDblue
In the Sox/Angels game that this thread is referenced to, the HP was wrong in not calling "batter out". He signaled strike and then threw a hammer indicating the batter was out. The ball did not hit the dirt and if he had any feeling that it did, he should have asked for help from 1BU or 3BU because they had a better angle on the pitch. The catcher knew he caught the ball without it touching the ground after it touched his glove. If I remember my baseball rules correctly, it doesn't matter if the ball touched the ground prior to touching the catcher. This rule only applies if it hits any part of the catcher and "then" hits the ground. If it hits the ground and then into the catchers mitt, same thing as if he caught it to begin with. In this instance, it didn't matter since the ball never touched the ground until the catcher tossed the ball back to the mound.

From MLB rules:

6.05
A batter is out when_ (a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder; (b) A third strike is legally caught by the catcher; "Legally caught" means in the catcher's glove before the ball touches the ground.

[whaddayouknow]

Originally posted by NDblue
If I remember my baseball rules correctly...

Maybe your baseball rules state such, but all other versions and all softball rules state differently.

Mechanics-wise, if a ball comes in for a called strike and is then dropped by the catcher, I give my "normal" sell third strike mechanic and yell "arrrgh" as if it had been caught. I then wait for subsequent action and give a routine out if needed.

If it is a swinging strike, I execute my "checked swing" mechanic of pointing at the batter with my left hand and calling "Yes she/he did." Then waiting for subsequent action before giving a routine out if needed.

[gsf23]

The problem that I have with it is the consistency of the calls. One of the sports programs showed clips of two other dropped third strikes in the game. In both of those instances, Eddings didn't give his "hammer" signal until AFTER the catcher tagged the batter. In this instance, he gave the hammer signal right away, like he did after all his other swinging strikeouts. That is where the big confusion is coming from and where some people are saying they really don't believe what Eddings is saying about the situation.

[gsf23]

Originally posted by NDblue
... If I remember my baseball rules correctly, it doesn't matter if the ball touched the ground prior to touching the catcher. This rule only applies if it hits any part of the catcher and "then" hits the ground. If it hits the ground and then into the catchers mitt, same thing as if he caught it to begin with...

Wow..hope you are only doing slow-pitch..