Difficult Situation #2: Line Drive tipped foul by F5

tcannizzo · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 25, 2005, 06:16pm

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B.

B3 rips a line drive along the 3B line and touches about 2 inches foul just past the edge of the grass. PU calls FOUL!

However, the ball was moving so fast, and F5 was playing in, that by the time he picked up the ball it was already past F5.

PU did not see that the line drive was tipped by F5 in fair territory and should have been ruled FAIR!

BU saw that the ball was tipped by F5.

The foul call could not be reversed, but should BU have signalled something before PU called FOUL?

U of M Sam · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 25, 2005, 08:20pm

I am slightly confused. You say BU saw line drive "tipped" by F5 but PU did not see this? How can BU, who is in the C position, see this "tip" better than the PU?
As I understand, there no "signal" that BU should have made.
PU has responsibility of both foul lines. Call stands, in my opinion

Andy · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 25, 2005, 08:45pm

I'm with Sam....

In real time on a play like this, there will be no time for the BU to signal anything before the words FOUL BALL come out of my mouth.

I am also of the opinion that once a ball is called foul, it stays foul...this is a bell that can't be unrung!

tcannizzo · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 07:08am

. . . You say BU saw line drive "tipped" by F5 but PU did not see this? How can BU, who is in the C position, see this "tip" better than the PU?

Do the math.
a.) The ball was traveling at 95 mph (Rocket Tech)
b.) F5 is 45 feet from batter
c.) Bat to Tip is .323 seconds

PU
a.) gets rid of mask
b.) gets out of crouch
c.) locates ball

Apparently this PU admitted that he didn't locate the ball until it was about even with 3B and saw it tailing towards the line. The ball struck the ground about 4 inches foul about 10 feet past the edge of the grass.

How quick is your reaction time? (Without the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.)

PU in C position was in the perfect place to see the tip.

The FOUL call stood as once a play is killed it cannot be resurrected.

Should BU consider giving a signal like foul tip? Might be a good idea because it gives the PU an opportunity to pick up the signal prior to the ball striking foul ground.

AtlUmp · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 08:51am

Come on now..The PU should already have "picked up" the ball when it left the pitchers hand, and when it changes direction it will be going pretty close to straight away from him. You should be able to see the ball while getting out of you're crouch and the mask shouldn't be a problem. You can delay removing it for the second or so it takes for this play to develop. This is the PU's call and one he has to make because the BU does not have a good angle, looking through body/glove of F6 and he would also have the same timing problems you described for the PU with a much worse view of the play.

tcannizzo · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 10:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by AtlUmp
You can delay removing it for the second or so it takes for this play to develop.

Steve, this play takes 323/1000ths of a second.

Making the decision to delay taking the mask off is not within human possibility. 250/1000ths of a second is about the fastest brain-to-muscle response capable. The 70/1000ths of a second of additional time is not a hell of a lot to work with.

We can set this up in a clinical environment with a pitching machine shooting a ball at a target that either just tips or misses it.

I would be glad to buy a steak dinner to any PU who is able to make this call 5 out of 10 times, even in the clinical environment where there is no element of surprise.

AtlUmp · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 11:07am

I'm not Atlumpsteve and I don't know that he would agree with me on this anyway. I think you are just getting to carried away with the technicalities. Besides if this happens so fast then are you saying that in the 350/1000's of a second from the ping of the bat to glove contact you can react, move you're hand, grab the mask and remove it? I believe this would take care of itself, it's going to happen before the mask comes off anyway. Also why do you believe the BU would have a better view from behind and right of the play as oppossed to the PU with the play right in front? Even if the BU could make a call all you would end up with is a good chance of two umpires making a different call on the same play. Again this is a call the PU has got to make.

tcannizzo · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 11:48am

AtlUmp, sorry for the case of mistaken identity. It didn't look like Steve's writing style.

...I think you are just getting to carried away with the technicalities. . .

You wrote that the play would take "the second or so" for the play to develop. Technicalities? schmeknicalities! Math makes my head spin too. But it points out why PU only had one point of reference on the FOUL BALL call, which was the ball touching foul.

And sticking with the original point, this is a difficult situation. Like the commercial on TV - "The matrix isn't perfect".

. . .Besides if this happens so fast then are you saying that in the 350/1000's of a second from the ping of the bat to glove contact you can react, move you're hand, grab the mask and remove it? I believe this would take care of itself, it's going to happen before the mask comes off anyway. . .

Not sure what point you are trying to make.

. . .Also why do you believe the BU would have a better view from behind and right of the play as oppossed to the PU with the play right in front? . . .

I was not stating an opinion. BU was in the C2 position, and had a clear view of the tip which was on the same side of the infield.

...Even if the BU could make a call all you would end up with is a good chance of two umpires making a different call on the same play. Again this is a call the PU has got to make...

Whoa podna! Never suggested that BU make the call.
Perhaps a BU-to-PU tip signal would have given PU something to additional to consider and a better chance of making the correct call.

PU did make the call, but the call was wrong.

AtlUmpSteve · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 26, 2005, 03:04pm

Okay, this time you got me (Steve).

This is one that will just go down as "too bad, so sad". Don't care what the BU saw or heard, the call belongs to PU, and must be made immediately; if s/he doesn't see or hear the tip, oh well. No signal would be appropriate, nor would the be time for a believable call to be made by the PU if s/he stops to see if that one time in a million the BU has a different idea about the call.

You say it was the wrong call, Tony; maybe. But it was the only call that PU can make, and it's in the book. Probably not the first or last "wrong call" that will be the final call.