BU covering home?

[WestMichiganBlue]

Here is a mechanic that worked well for us, but the Tournament UIC wasn't happy with the BU covering home. What do you think?

ASA 18U feature game under lights, two strong teams, mostly college players. Lead off batter hits towering fly to deep L-Center field. As PU, I am all the way to SS area trying to find the ball in a dark area of the outfield. F8 goes down, I am looking for ball, finally see F7 pick up ball and fire home.

Obviously no catch, but now B-R is rounding 3B. Partner, who went inside and is taking the B-R to 3B is now inside me. I yell at him to go home, which he does. Throw from F7 beats B-R by a mile and she heads back for 3B. I move over and take the tag out call at 3B.

Both of us end up in perfect position to make a call - but we are reversed.

WMB

[MNBlue]

If you deviate, communicate. It sounds like you and your partner had great communication and both of you were aware of what each other was doing. It sounds like there were two umpires in position to correctly box in the runner and get the call right. I would have applauded your ability to adapt to the situation and work/communicate together. Great job!

[mcrowder]

I would ask the Tournament UIC how he would propose covering this scenario, and if he'd prefer BU doing nothing while PU tried to run back and forth between 3rd and home (or BU heading toward third, out of PU's line of sight, only to have both umpires at 3rd base and no one covering home.)

In my group, BU would have trickled in toward home automatically after watching the touches at 1st and 2nd - no communication would have been necessary, as what you describe is "normal".

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by MNBlue
If you deviate, communicate. It sounds like you and your partner had great communication and both of you were aware of what each other was doing. It sounds like there were two umpires in position to correctly box in the runner and get the call right. I would have applauded your ability to adapt to the situation and work/communicate together. Great job!

DITTO ! Wonderful example of how well things go when we work as a team.

Besides, BU covering home is a defined rotation in 3 ump mech.

[Edited by CecilOne on Aug 10th, 2005 at 02:22 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by CecilOne

DITTO ! Wonderful example of how well things go when we work as a team.

Besides, BU covering home is a defined rotation in 3 ump mech.

[Edited by CecilOne on Aug 10th, 2005 at 02:22 PM]

That's correct, a three-umpire rotation. In the two-umpire game, the BU should never be covering home as a rule. As an exception, it is helpful if the PU gets caught up some place.

In this scenario, it was noted that the BU and PU ended up standing next to each other. That means that this didn't exactly work as well as expected and the communications necessary just wasn't there.

As a UIC I would applaud the PU's effort to get a good look at the ball. Then I would ask him/her what s/he was doing out near the SS's position.

As a UIC, I would be looking at all the things that could go wrong on this play. Obviously, it worked out in this case. However, my first thought in reading the play was that the PU placed himself inside the diamond and possibly in the middle of the play since a throw from LC toward home would most likely pass through the area covered by the SS.

Part of the mechanics offered by the NUS is to get the umpires in a good position to see the plays. Part is also meant to provide the umpires a path and location which keeps them out of the play and out of trouble.

[argodad]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[BIn this scenario, it was noted that the BU and PU ended up standing next to each other. That means that this didn't exactly work as well as expected and the communications necessary just wasn't there.

[/B]

I don't see in the original situation that the BU and PU were ever standing next to each other. It says BU was "inside" the PU, not "beside."

[WestMichBlue]

"Then I would ask him/her what s/he was doing out near the SS's position"

Where should I be? Foul territory? Inside the diamond? Closer to 3B or 2B? Pitcher's circle?

"PU placed himself inside the diamond and possibly in the middle of the play"

There was no one on base; if caught we have routine out. Otherwise assume a double and ball returned to 2B. What allowed the runner to continue so far was (a) speed, (b) very high hit, (c) deep - near 250'(way over the fence on normal women's field), and (d) a little extra time for F7 to find and p/u ball after F8 fell on it.

"it was noted that the BU and PU ended up standing next to each other"

Not true. I was near the baseline; BU was 10' - 12' inside base line moving towards 3B. Note that I said that I yelled at him to go home. Had I tried to back-peddle I would have been chasing a runner that is way faster than me.

It is interesting that my partner and I were OK with the play, and other umpires on this board have applauded. But two UIC's have been critical. You guys sure are hard to please.

WMB

[U of M Sam]

Originally posted by WestMichiganBlue

Both of us end up in perfect position to make a call - but we are reversed.

WMB

Hey WMB:
Sounds like you and your umpire partner worked well in the "odd" situation described. I think you and I talked about this type of situation during the 2005 high school softball season. I say "Good job"
Sam W.

P.S. Also looking forward to seeing you during the 2006 HS softball season

[Edited by U of M Sam on Aug 10th, 2005 at 10:03 PM]

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by argodad

I don't see in the original situation that the BU and PU were ever standing next to each other. It says BU was "inside" the PU, not "beside."

Larry,

You're right. I saw that, but obviously never made the correction before posting.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"Then I would ask him/her what s/he was doing out near the SS's position"

Where should I be? Foul territory? Inside the diamond? Closer to 3B or 2B? Pitcher's circle?

As everyone knows, you don't run directly toward a catch, but at an angle which means I would probably stay in foul territory, but not past 3B.

"PU placed himself inside the diamond and possibly in the middle of the play"

There was no one on base; if caught we have routine out. Otherwise assume a double and ball returned to 2B. What allowed the runner to continue so far was (a) speed, (b) very high hit, (c) deep - near 250'(way over the fence on normal women's field), and (d) a little extra time for F7 to find and p/u ball after F8 fell on it.

But those are things which an umpire must be aware during the play.

"it was noted that the BU and PU ended up standing next to each other"

Not true. I was near the baseline; BU was 10' - 12' inside base line moving towards 3B. Note that I said that I yelled at him to go home. Had I tried to back-peddle I would have been chasing a runner that is way faster than me.

IOW, you were out of position. Someone could make the argument that having your back turned to the infield means it turned to a one-umpire format, but I wouldn't buy that due to your proximity to the diamond.

It is interesting that my partner and I were OK with the play, and other umpires on this board have applauded. But two UIC's have been critical. You guys sure are hard to please.

WMB

Well, apparently your partner wasn't OK with the play or you wouldn't have had to "yell" at him to adjust his coverage. I, also, noted that you should be lauded for your hustle and effort in covering the fly ball.

HOWEVER, the UIC has other priorities than that single play. As I noted before, the mechanics are there to get the umpire crew in the best position to provide the widest array of coverage without putting themselves in jeopardy of interfering with a play or being injured.

I have been trained in the exact mechanics which occured as this play unfolded, just that my partner would not have been that far out, called for the play at 3rd and the BU would automatically head for the plate.

The problem with this is what happens when you yell at your partner and s/he isn't there? Ocassionaly, an umpire in the A will get boxed outside, especially on a speedy runner. And we all know how goofy some of these fielders can get. By the time this umpire navigates the players, it may be too late for her/him to variate on the play and get to a good position to make a call at home.

I know the mechanic you described works most of the time, but the one time it doesn't may not be the best time for it to breakdown. Imagine what your UIC would have said if it didn't work out?

Like it or not, UICs are supposed to be representing the sanctioning body and their way of doing things. I've worked for some UICs which had their own ideas of how to do things and inserted situational variations within a couple hours of game time. Some umpires pick up on them and others do not. Well, we all know how discombobulated a crew looks when a member of the crew is on a different page that his/her partners.

As many senior umpires have reminded me over the years, the mechanics are developed for the training of 40K plus, not the 1% percent who work at the upper levels of the game.

[scottk_61]

I think you did well to communicate the deviation to your partner on the play you describe but the deviation was mandated by some bad mechanics on the PU's part.

Like Mike said, never run toward a catch, instead get as close as is reasonable to a 90 degree angle to the catch. Which in the play description would have put you around 3rd.
Persoanlly, with a dark field or a field with dark areas, I may have taken a step or two inside the foul line BUT NOT under normal lighting.
If you had been in the 3rd base area, you still would have been in place for a throw from the outfield for a play at 3rd if you needed to be.

I think you "done good" in that situation but that situarion wouldn't have occured if you had used the better mechanics that I am sure you know and would normally practice.

[MichaelVA2000]

I had this discussion with our association UIC during an ASA National tournament about a similar play and she stated that in two man mechanics the plate umpire would have plate coverage. In three man mechanics U1 would rotate home/

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by MichaelVA2000
I had this discussion with our association UIC during an ASA National tournament about a similar play and she stated that in two man mechanics the plate umpire would have plate coverage. In three man mechanics U1 would rotate home/

Not on the play offered as the 3B umpire would have gone out on the play and the mechanics would have reverted to the two-umpire scheme.

Shouldn't the BU have gone out on this play leaving the PU with the one man system? We call at a park that the lighting is not so good and they have removable fence which is white and sometimes hard to see if a ball bounces or clears it. BU has to go out quite often. Sound like they recovered well, but could have been handed better.

[WestMichBlue]

"Shouldn't the BU have gone out on this play?"

Lead-off batter, therefore BU was in A. Ball was to left of CF. Not his play.

WMB