Return to Double Base

tzme415 · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 07:53am

I have seen many times this year where a runner either rounds 1B or starts on 1B, then when returning to the base actually returns to the orange portion of the base. It is almost like they have been told so many times that they have to run to the orange portion that they think it applies all the time. We have discussed on this board that the orange portion is basically like dirt to the fielder if the play is in fair territory. The question is does the same apply to the runner after the initial play at 1B?

1) The BR rounds 1B, F3 gets throw from F4 and tags BR who has returned to the orange portion of the base - Out or Safe?

2) R1 on 1B, Fly ball to Right, R1 doesn't tag up, but returns to 1B when ball is caught, but returns to orange portion and just beats throw from F9 to F3 who is on white portion of base - Out or Safe?

This is one reason I don't like the double base; it just creates confusion especially for the runners.

Antonella · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 08:29am

I think YES - the same you can apply to the runner after the initial play at 1st.

So:

1) BR is out
2) R1 is out

Nothing wrong with double-base. It is useful and fun.

A.

mcrowder · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 08:39am

2) R1 must be tagged. She has "achieved" 1st base for tag-up purposes, as she has "passed" the bag.

Think of it literally like the orange bag is dirt. So in this case, R1 returns to first and steps OVER (or around) it when returning. She's not out if the ball comes into first base now and F3 touches the bag - she must be tagged and would be out for being tagged while off the base.

Antonella · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 08:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
2) R1 must be tagged. She has "achieved" 1st base for tag-up purposes, as she has "passed" the bag.

Think of it literally like the orange bag is dirt. So in this case, R1 returns to first and steps OVER (or around) it when returning. She's not out if the ball comes into first base now and F3 touches the bag - she must be tagged and would be out for being tagged while off the base.

???
Need an explanation here (sorry... sometimes I miss something in english)...
I tought it was the classic 'immediate appel play' situation. Defensive player doesn't need to tag anyone (though she can do it anyway) - it is enough if she touch the bag with the possession of the ball...
Am I misunderstanding the initial situation?

A.

mcrowder · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 09:11am

The direction a runner is moving doesn't change the rules we go by.

If a batter misses first base on a close play, and F3 catches the ball while on first base AFTER BR has passed first base (even though she didn't touch), BR is not out, and F3 must make an unmistakeable appeal that BR had missed first base.

This play is exactly the same, but in the other direction, and the umpire is to assume the runner "achieved" the base when she passes it. The fielder must appeal the miss (or tag the runner off the base).

Antonella · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 09:36am

Quote:

(...)If a batter misses first base on a close play, and F3 catches the ball while on first base AFTER BR has passed first base (even though she didn't touch), BR is not out, and F3 must make an unmistakeable appeal that BR had missed first base.

I agree with this 100%.

Quote:

This play is exactly the same, but in the other direction, and the umpire is to assume the runner "achieved" the base when she passes it. The fielder must appeal the miss (or tag the runner off the base).

Mmmhh... Is this an interpr. or is it specifically on ASA Rulebook?

A.

IRISHMAFIA · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 09:58am

Offensively, the double-base is available ONLY to a batter-runner. Once a BR attains 1B safely, s/he is no longer a batter-runner, but simply a runner (by rule definition).

Use of the double-base is not available to a runner.

mcrowder · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 10:06am

We know that, Mike - but that doesn't answer the question at all.

streamdoc · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 11:11am

It took me a minute, but now I see what mc is saying, and I agree. There is a statement in the rule book (not sure if it is ASA, NFHS or both books) that a runner that has passed a base is assumed to have touched that base. In the situation that we are talking about, only if a proper appeal is made for missing the base, should the runner be called out. Using that statement (forgive me for not having page number available, but maybe SRW can look it up) you act as if the runner touched the white portion, and if tagged while only touching the safety base (which is now only dirt), the runner would be called out on the appeal (fielder tagging the runner). Essentially, the runner is not called out for failing to tag up, but rather for being off the base and getting tagged.

IRISHMAFIA · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 11:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
We know that, Mike - but that doesn't answer the question at all.

Have to disagree. I believe if you apply the statement to any of the questions in this thread and the answers become self-evident.

tzme415 · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 12:07pm

Thanks guys....I thought that it should be treated like it wasn't there for a runner...I can just see if one of these situations happens and I call the runner out

"What, I'm on the base"
"We were told to always use the orange side when running to first"

The life of an ump

CecilOne · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Aug 04, 2005, 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
We know that, Mike - but that doesn't answer the question at all.

Have to disagree. I believe if you apply the statement to any of the questions in this thread and the answers become self-evident.

Only if you also know "the umpire is to assume the runner "achieved" the base when she passes it"

Antonella · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 05, 2005, 03:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by tzme415
(...)2) R1 on 1B, Fly ball to Right, R1 doesn't tag up, but returns to 1B when ball is caught, but returns to orange portion and just beats throw from F9 to F3 who is on white portion of base - Out or Safe?

In the initial situation I assumed (the underlined is mine) that the runner reach ONLY the orange portion of the bag.

Am I wrong about this?

If not: R1 is out.

A.

P.S. If you ask me 'why' - re-read Mike Rowe's statement about the possibility for an offensive player to use the orange portion of the bag.

Dakota · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 05, 2005, 09:21am

Forget the orange base in these situations. Rule the same way you would if the runner overstepped the bag and stepped on dirt. Simple.

mcrowder · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Aug 05, 2005, 01:30pm

You are right, Anton, that the runner only touched orange (i.e. dirt), overstepping the actual base.

But why do you have an out here unless an appeal or tag is made? In all cases, according to ASA, a runner is assumed to have "reached" a missed base when they pass it, thus you DON'T have an out when the ball comes in... at least not yet.