Thoughts on the mercy rules.

Called a state qualifier tournament this past weeked. ASA Championship rules with a modification to the mercy rule: added 10 after 4 to the 15 after 3 and 8 after 5.

I've often wondered about where those particular numbers came from. Where is it in the basics of the game that a team that is 15 behind after less than half the game is in a hopeless situation?

Championship game of a double elimination tournament, loser's bracket winner v winner's bracket winner. Loser's bracket team (which was the team that lost in the final game of the winner's bracket.) wins.

"If" game. I've got the bases. Winner's bracket team is home & scores 10 runs in the bottom of the 1st inning, score 10-0. 2nd inning, visitors score 2. Home scores 3. 13-2. 3rd inning, visitors score 0. Home loads bases with no outs. Winning run at plate. K's. Next batter hits a shallow fly to left. 2 out. Next batter is thrown out at first. So, visitors live one more inning, but now mercy rule is now 10, not 15, and the margin is 11.

Visitors score 2 in the top, and hold home to no runs. Live for one more inning. Margin now 9 (13-4). Visitors score 2 more in the top of the 5th. Home again held to no score. Again, just barely escape the mercy rule (13-6).

6th inning, visitors score 5, home no score. (13-11) 7th inning, visitors score 4 to finally go ahead 15-13 (big hit was a deep fly into RF with bases loaded, scoring 3).

Bottom of the 7th, home has R1 on 2B with two outs, batter hits a sharp grounder to F6 who bobbles it a bit, gains control in time for a bang-bang out at 1B. Game over.

Team that barely kept their head above the mercy rule 3 times wins by 2.

Does kind of make you wonder - how many teams sent home after 3 or 5 could have come back? Where did 15 after 3 come from? Or 8 after 5?

arbitrary probably.. but i love mercy rule,.. i just hate when they linger 1 run under the mercy rule..

I'm sure time is the issue. The ASA CNQ just hosted here had a 21-0 game after 2 1/2 innings. Game was still more than an hour long and that was after the winning team backed off and started going "station-to-station" at the begining of the bottom of the 2nd.

Imagine if that had to go the entire 7 innings?

I agree with Mike. I think it is a time thing.

AFA utilizes the 8 after 5 as does NCAA. But still the game is usually 1:30 TO 1:45
long. I work a complex in Houston that utilizes the run rule of 8-6-5, beginning in
the third. Now that one I like. Some AFA qualifiers in the area utilize 10-8-6-5
beginning in the 3rd. However, you still gotta love the 1 after 7.

ASA calls it a "run ahead" rule and mandates it for all national tournaments so maybe it does have something to do with time and keeping on schedule.

However, most people call it a "mercy rule" and it is as it's name implies - have mercy on the poor team getting it's butts whipped. Most youth sports and many high school sports (including basketball and football) have mercy rules to prevent the humiliation of an over-matched team getting drubbed. It also prevents injuries. When you are down by 30 points what prevents you from taking out the opponents star player going in for a layup. After all, what's another free throw?

I like it for competitive reasons. I would rather the players continue to play and run hard to get the to mercy limit and end the game, rather than having a coach hold his runner's back or create cheap outs.

WMB

I agree, but I have also found that some coaches don't want to take that character hit and want the umpires to be the bad guy.

I have had coaches request time to tell me their runners were going to jump early so I could call them out. I suggested that the 3B coach just catch their runner rounding 3rd for the out. The coach looked at me like I was crazy and said, "I can't do that, I'm the coach!"

So, the umpire needs to *******ize the game, but the coach cannot? :)

Don't misunderstand... the mercy rule (by whatever name) is a good rule, and with time limit games, even more so. In that vein, there should be a 20 after 2 rule for time limit games.

I was just wondering about the numbers chosen. It seems that 15 after 3 is pretty fair; that is a steep hill to climb even with 4 full innings remaining. But 8 after 5 seems like too close a score to call for "mercy." That is just a net gain of 4 runs for each of the remaining at-bats. Certainly not out of reach at the younger levels. I wouldn't think it would be out of reach for the offensive-minded slow pitch game, either.

In the game I described in the beginning, 8 after 5 would have been a losing score in the end, not a "have mercy" situation.

But, as I said, just wondering.

Best application of mercy rule
 

Here's one that is one of my all-timers (and even better, true story!):

Team A is behind 13-0 going into top of 3.
Team A scores two runs, making it 13-2.
Team A coach goes up to PU after top of third.
"OK, blue, we got your 15 after 3, we're done."

PU: "Ok, that's ball game." Goes out to circle to pick up ball, tells is BU to shut up and they trot off the field.

mercy rule
 

How is this one...

10 after 2.

That was in a fast pitch state tournament.

Tell me that 10 runs after 2 innings constitutes a ballgame being over.

I caught so much grief about this but afterall...I was just the umpire not the tournament director.

Re: Best application of mercy rule
 

bkbjones: Lemme guess - you're the PU here... ? :D

Re: Best application of mercy rule
 

Well, with that math, then 8-7 after 3 is also GAME! :D

Someone told me last year that there was a high school rule that said 25 after 1 would be a game. Never heard of it before.

My granddaughter's team was leading 14-2 going into the 4th in a 10 after 4, 8 after 5, but their pitcher lost it and walked in eight runs in the 4th. Final score, 23-11 in full 6 innings.

I wish we would have had that 15 run rule in the McQuade's Charity SP softball tournament. 75 min time limit. I'm umping a game that after 3 innings, the winning team was ahead by 30 runs. This was 97 minutes into the game. They're required to play a minimum of 4 innings no matter the time limit. Losing team is home so they get last bat. Top of 4th inning, I started to make up outs to get the game over with. Neither coach said a thing and just nodded. Final score was 38 - 0. I couldn't help pitches that were landing if front of the plate or dang near hitting me in the chest because they were too deep. Anything that looked remotely close was called a strike.

Quote:

Anything that looked remotely close was called a strike.

Sounds like you got lazy. An umpire should NEVER compromize the strike zone, or "make up outs" just because the teams are mis-matched.

SRW,

You see, that's where you're wrong. I didn't get lazy. I was getting frustrated at the losing team not having a single decent ball player on the team and still entering the largest weekend SP softball tournament in the world. Waste of $150 and a weekend if you ask me.

Mismatched? Is that how you see it? This is a lot worse that just 2 mismatched teams. Have you ever officiated a game that ran almost 2 hours and only went 4 innings? It was brutal to say the least. Is your strike zone perfect for every pitch in every level of slow pitch softball? If so, you must ump some very long games and walk a lot of batters. I'll expand a strike zone to get a batter to swing the bat. SP softball is not a pitchers game and to be honest, called or swinging strike outs should be rare. In my 20 years of playing softball, I can't remember ever swinging and missing a less than 25 MPH pitched ball that's as big as a grapefruit.

If there was a 75 minute time limit as posted in your original message, why did you let the game go 2 hours?

Mike - you missed the part of the post that 4 innings were required before the 75 minute time limit went into effect.

I have played and umped the McQuade Tournament. It is fun. Hope to get back to do it again.

The games NDBlue is talking about are killers, not only on the umpires but the players too. Rather than continue the onslaught after the 2nd or 3rd inning, I might have gotten the two captains together and got them to agree to forgo the required four innings. As long as they both agreed to it, I don't think the TD would question it.

Shouldn't be your problem, and shouldn't get frustrated. If a crappy team enters a tournament like that, then so be it. Maybe they entered so they could play some higher-quality ball, whatever. You're just the guy who got stuck with that game. To compromise the zone and "make up outs" because YOU'RE frustrated is not only wrong, but makes a mockery of the game, and tells me a lot about you as an umpire. You should be out there giving them your best every time, not making yourself look like a fool for changing the zone or making up outs, just so you could feel good about yourself and not be frustrated.
2-hour 4-inning games? Yes, we've all run into one of those. Is my zone perfect? No, probably not... but I remain CONSISTENT throughout the game. I'm not going to change the zone mid-game just because the game is lop-sided, or I feel like it to "get the game over with."

The biggest complaint about umpires is consistency throughout the game. You've proven to me that you're part of the problem, not the solution.

SRW,

I'm going to let you believe what you want and not argue with you. I know I'm a good umpire and that I'm fair and CONSISTENT with my calls. My state UIC knows that I'm a good umpire and that I'm fair and CONSISTENT with my calls. Every team that plays in games that I ump know that I'm a good umpire and that I'm fair and CONSISTENT with my calls. That's all that matters, I guess. In the game that I was talking about, I was being as fair and CONSISTENT as possible but you know what, there are times that you need to bend or tweak a rule to get the job done. If widening the strike zone a balls width each side of the plate helps eleviate some embarrassment to a losing team, I'll do it. If it helps speed up a game that is taking WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too long, I'll do it. I'm not violating any rules nor am I being inconsistent. If one pitcher get my modified strike zone, so does the other. There were no complaints about how I called this game and I'm sure both teams were happy to get it over with. You weren't there so please get over yourself and your superiority complex. I didn't make a fool out of myself and I didn't make a mockery of the game.

As far as talking to both team captains about ending the game early, I personally would not feel comfortable doing it. I would get ticked at an ump that asked me to forfiet any part of a game because we were at that time getting beat up. I've played in games where the team that was getting trounced made a comback and won. I've been on both sides. I don't feel that could have happened in this game.

[Edited by NDblue on Aug 1st, 2005 at 01:04 PM]

Why don't you just call the big zone right from the beginning of the game?

Sure you're being inconsistent...Inconsistent comparing your zone from the first pitch to the last pitch.

And what do you care about a team's embarrassment factor? They're adults, they can handle it.

Umpired in one league that used the 20 after 2 rule, but also allowed the team behind by 20 or more to bat until 1 out was recorded AFTER every batter got to bat. (So, using CBO, with 12 batters, if after 2 innings it was 20-0, and the losing team had not gotten a runner on base, batters 7-12 would then bat in the top of the third and then B1 would bat - after B12 batted, the team ahead had to record an additional out (they still needed the 3 outs to end the top of the 3rd). League even said that if that team managed to score 20 in the top of the 3rd, they lost due to the 2nd inning run rule--- this did encourage the winning team to put in a lesser pitcher or play their weaker players in the field.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SRW

Quote:

Sounds like you got lazy. An umpire should NEVER compromize the strike zone, or "make up outs" just because the teams are mis-matched.

Never say "never." There are times when a wider zone and finding an out are the right thing to do.

Our Florida HS run ahead rule is 15 after 5. You've got to complete five innings (or 4.5 if the home team ....). I'm BU in a mismatched game with the weak team at home. No lights. My partner (bless him) has had a bigger-than-usual zone all day. It's 21-0 heading into the top of the fifth. We're quickly losing daylight. We get two quick outs. Looking OK. Suddenly the pitching and defense gets even worse. Walks and errors make it 29-0 with the bases loaded. On a 2-0 pitch I call "No pitch. Runner left second early." Both coaches nod. We go 3-up-3-down in the bottom of the fifth. Ball game.

Sure, my partner could have called his "normal" zone, and we could have stayed on the field until it got too dark to see. Outcome -- the teams and umpires would have to figure out when they can come back to finish a game that was suspended with a score of 29-0.

I think we did the right thing.

Try 10 after 5 unless your school district is really trying to stretch things out.

You are correct, I missed that. The post makes more sense now. Then again, why bother with a time limit if you are going to require a certain number of innings?

Sometimes I wonder what TD's dream about, now I know :)

I guess they didn't think that there was much chance of a four inning game lasting more than 75 minutes, but there are always exceptions.