Overthrow Rule

[NSABlue]

Originally posted by tzme415
Thanks - I guess what made the call seem more difficult was the time it took the ball to go out of play. By then R2 had already rounded 3rd and BR was almost to 3rd. It seemed I was penalizing the offense and rewarding the defense for the ball going out of play.

Travis,
You award bases based on the time of the throw, not the time the ball went out of play. I still say R1 gets home, R2 gets third and BR gets 2nd.

[greymule]

one plus one

This phrase has been around as long as I can remember (back to the 1950s). About 25 years ago, I wrote to "Ask Hal, the Referee" at the Sporting News to ask its origin. He responded in his column that he had long heard umpires use the term, but since it was nowhere in the rules, it must have been something that was simply picked up and then repeated enough that players and umpires assumed it was some sort of official term. "Hal" went on to remind his readers that "one plus one equals two."

It is "one plus one" that makes people think a runner gets the base he is returning to plus one. As I remember, some softball codes did use such a rule in the past.

the old "one from the IF, two from the OF" types of award

I still hear people say this, including announcers. Does anyone know where it came from? I wonder whether it was in somebody's code long ago.

In the pregame of a recent FP tournament, my new partner reminded the coaches that it was "one base from the mound, two from the field." Neither coach asked what he was talking about, but I made a mental note to make sure to watch whether the pitcher stepped off the rubber before attempting a pickoff.

[tcannizzo]

Originally posted by tzme415
I am only ump
I award R1 and R2 home and BR 3rd
Defense Captain comes to me and asks if I saw R2 touch 2nd before the throw, which of course I could not since I was watching the play. The rule is 2 bases from the last base touched at the time of the throw. So I put R2 back on 3rd and BR on 2nd.

Of course, now offensive captain goes wild. I explain call and it quiets. Next batter gets hit that scores both R2 and previous BR, so point is moot.

Wait another minute, I am not done questioning the call...;-)

Did you take the defensive coach's word that R2 had not yet reached 2B?

What did you explain to the offensive coach?

The answer should have been to the defensive coach..."Coach, in my judgement R2 had touched 2B"...and let the original call stand.

[chiquita]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tcannizzo
[B]

Originally posted by tzme415
I am only ump
The answer should have been to the defensive coach..."Coach, in my judgement R2 had touched 2B"...and let the original call stand.

I AGREE. I WOULD HAVE STUCK WITH MY ORIGINAL CALL. WITH A ONE MAN SYSTEM, YOU HAVE TO GO ALOT WITH JUDGEMENT...

[tzme415]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chiquita
[B]

Originally posted by tcannizzo

I AGREE. I WOULD HAVE STUCK WITH MY ORIGINAL CALL. WITH A ONE MAN SYSTEM, YOU HAVE TO GO ALOT WITH JUDGEMENT...

I thought about it for a minute, but would have had a hard time saying R2 reached 2nd by the time of the throw when R1 had not reached 3rd. R1 was definitely faster than R2, but BR was a real burner and was probably on 1st before throw. If I would have awarded BR 2 bases and R2 2 bases they would have both been on 3rd. That was another thing that bothered me. If the ball would not have gone out of play; R1, R2, and BR would have all probably scored.

[greymule]

I thought about it for a minute, but would have had a hard time saying R2 reached 2nd by the time of the throw when R1 had not reached 3rd.

Apparently the play you described was straightforward, with the runners and the BR off with the hit. Nobody pausing, tripping, loafing, or going the wrong way. If F1 had a play at 3B, it is unlikely that the runner from 1B had reached 2B at the time of the throw.

R1 was definitely faster than R2 . . .

More evidence that R2 had not reached 2B by TOT.

but BR was a real burner and was probably on 1st before throw.

This is irrelevant to placing R1 and R2.

If I would have awarded BR 2 bases and R2 2 bases they would have both been on 3rd.

If two runners are between 1B and 2B at TOT, you award the preceding runner 3B and the following runner 2B.

That was another thing that bothered me. If the ball would not have gone out of play; R1, R2, and BR would have all probably scored.

This is utterly irrelevant. Even if a runner scores before the ball goes out of play, he still gets 2 bases only. If he had not reached 2B by TOT, you have to send him back to 3B.

[tzme415]

I understand, this is just one of the odd cases where the defense was actually helped by the ball going out of play.

[CecilOne]

Not odd, almost every dead ball limits the advance of runners. That is why there is a penalty for deliberate catch and carry which exceeds accidental.