This occurred in an AFA Championship game Sunday. (ASA rules should be same.) 18U

Bases juiced, 1 out, 2 & 2 count on the batter. She swings, ball hits dirt, catcher
delays, umpires states "strike 3", then catcher throws the ball towards 1B. Ball ends up in
RF, with runner from 3rd scoring. Runner from 2B comes in also. Misses the plate, umpire
signals nothing, runner that had just scored from 3B, picks runner that was on 2B up,
and moves her to HP. Runner is called safe by PU, time is then called.

At this point, what would your call have been. (Yes, there is more to the story,
however, would like to hear reactions to the above events first.

2 outs, 2 runs in, runner from 1st is somewhere (I'm assuming 3rd). Batter is in the dugout. Next batter please.

MC-

I agreed with you until I reread the stitch for a third time. The runner from 3rd scores. When the runner from 2nd misses the plate, the previous runner (the one that just scored) picked her up and moved her to the plate. That would be physically assisting a runner would it not? I know it's illegal for a coach to do so, I'm assuming it is for a fellow player to physically assist as well. If she would have told the other runner to go back and touch the plate all is well, but she physically assisted the runner in going back and touching the plate.

My line on the play:
-Batter out, D3K with first occupied less than 2 gone.
That makes 2 outs.
-Runner from 3rd scores
-Runner from 2nd is out for receiving physical assistance from a teammate for the third out, end of inning.

-Josh

Would the run score?? If I read it right R1 on third scored no issue, R2 from second was assisted back to the plate so she is out, so my question now is does R2's run score? R1 woudl be on 3rd and BR on 2nd(?). I get R2 out, but does her run get taken off the board?

Dave --- how did BR get to second. Put her back in the dugout.

Both of you - re-read (and perhaps post if handy) the physical assist rule. Look, in particular, for who is not allowed to do this.

This all comes down to an argument I believe we've had earlier. Is R3 still a runner after she scored? Consensus here (and in my clinic) was that she's still a runner until AFTER R2 scores legally, and in this sitch, would still be a runner when she assisted R2.

(PS - one other thing - if R2 was out at home for some other reason ... wouldn't you still score R1? Of course you would. So even if I'm on drugs and R2 is in fact out, R1 scored, and R2 is not a force out.)

BR is out: less than 2 outs with 1B occupied.

R2 scores, since physical assist by a runner is legal (8-7-E), and R1 is still legally a runner (Rule 1 - RUNNER).

Then, let the protest committee sort out if R1 is legally still a runner.

Why was TIME called?

I'm suspecting time was called after action stopped after a request from a coach so he could come argue about the legal physical assist.

If R3 is considered a runner until R2 scores, then you're exactly right on your first post MC.

-Josh

But...
 

But...
Once R2 reaches and passes the plate, even though she missed it, would R3 still be a runner? I say this because it would be an appeal play if, for instance, she simply went on toward the dugout. At first blush (and without rule book in hand) R3 could no longer legally assist R2.

It's a nice 5-page thread of it's own, isn't it?

I believe the last time this was discussed here, R3's status as "runner" remained just that until R2 legally scored (and, according to some, remained "Runner" until after the play has ended).

Consider the definition of runner - it does not exclude R3 in this sitch. Consider the physical assist rule - doesn't specify whether said runner could have already scored. (Other rules (like interference) where it wants this runner treated differently DO specify a difference between a runner who has already scored and one who has not).

Try the converse. Try to show, via the rulebook, that R3 is NOT allowed to physically assist R2. I believe you would lose that in a protest (a long, drawn out one, admittedly).

So - I'm curious to learn what happened in the real-life sitch. Who got themselves ejected over this one? ;)

You can't, except possibly by broad inference. The definition of a runner is checkcheckcheck.

The inference case can be made from Rule 8-7-P, where the retired runner is lumped together with a runner who has scored.

But, as I said, I'll let the protest committee make that inference. On the field, I'd allow the R3 assist of R2.

But, for AFA, Glen, you may actually have a different ruling, since the AFA rule book does not contain a definition of a runner (at least my 2004 book doesn't).

Reread the exception to ASA's 8.7.E. It just says assisted, didn't exempt anyone from the call.

The exception is for the live ball / dead ball difference.

It also does not mention any players specific to the rule, either, does it?

This was a rule change in 2003 to clarify the runner assistance rule.

Do you, by chance, still have the comments that accompanied the rule change? I have been reading this to carry over the "definition" of physical assistance from the main rule, since it doesn't clarify one way or the other. Did they intend to say that no one (not even another runner) may physically assist a runner who has scored? If so, that certainly clarifies the situation Glen posted, doesn't it? And, also, I have been understanding it wrong.

And if so, the clinics I've attended are teaching it wrong, as we specifically discussed runners being allowed to assist other runners.

Consider this; if no one other than other runners can assist a runner without this rule added in 2003, what purpose would this rule change serve? Simply to make the ball dead? I would think this rule, as an EXCEPTION, is to mean no one can physically assist a runner who has scored, not even another runner.

That is how I have been reading / understanding it.

And, since the case book does not include a case play where another runner assists a runner who missed home, the closest case play is 8.8-21, where the ODB assists the runner. The ruling says I took this case play to be illustrating the reason for the exception: i.e. a dead ball. If they wanted to illustrate that no one, not even another runner may assist a runner who has scored (which is the main reason for the rule change??), why didn't they write the case play having R1 score and come back to assist R2 who missed the base?

[Edited by Dakota on Jun 21st, 2005 at 12:40 PM]

Yes, another runner may assist. A player who has scored is no longer a runner. A player who has a trailing runner score cannot even retouch home if missed.

I know I'm not the only person who has heard the perfect two out runner assistance scenario.

If a trailing runner passes the preceding runner who has fallen, the trailer is out. Now, if the trailer helps the runner who fell to his/her feet, that runner is now out for being assisted by someone other than a runner.

I think you are making this much more complicated then it is meant to be.

BTW, I only have the comments the person who submitted the change (Glen Payne) which stated "to clarify runner assistance after failing to touch home."

While logic may say that, the rule doesn't. It says "not yet been put out."

I'm satisfied, BTW, with a ruling / interpretation that no one may assist a runner who has scored, I just had not previously read the exception to mean that, and I guess your recent post confirms that it doesn't - i.e. a runner may, indeed, assist a runner who has scored, assuming the runner can do that without passing or scoring.

And, the "debate" about whether a runner is still a runner after having scored is a bit anal and baseball-like.

Given all of this, here is the only scenario I can think of where a runner can legally assist a runner who has scored. R1 scores but misses home. R1 heads back toward her 3rd base dugout. R2 was also heading home and saw R1 miss the base. R2 deviates from her base path and gives R1 a push back toward home without passing her. R2 then follows R1 back to home and touchs right after R1 retouches. Legal, right?

Glen, how about the rest of the story?

Your scenario there is VERY similar to the initial post, and, if legal, would imply that the initial post's assist was also legal.

I REALLY want to hear the rest of the story now.

Tom, if that is the case, anyone who scored that inning could still be considered a runner :)

Quote:

And, the "debate" about whether a runner is still a runner after having scored is a bit anal and baseball-like.

HEY, HEY!!! The anal part I'll own up to, but the other......shame on you.

;)

"Tom, if that is the case, anyone who scored that inning could still be considered a runner "

Yeah... and that's the point. The rule doesn't seem to say that a runner who has scored cannot assist a previous runner. If the intent of the rules is different (and it may be), we must find it elsewhere.

I'm starting to find myself disappointed in the followup by initial poster though. I keep checking back to see what unfolded after the initial post.

Proving a negative :)

It doesn't say that a runner which scored CAN assist. For that matter, it doesn't differentiate among all the participants, it just states that the runner cannot be assisted. Lacking specifications, I have to assume that if ANYONE assists this runner, the runner is ruled out.

And Finally, The Rest Of The Story
 

On a runner who has passed a base, but not touched it. (And we all know that a runner
who has passed a base is considered to have touched it)

Though actually not spelled out in AFA, however, since AFA is 99% NCAA, the ruling was
That a player that has already scored cannot assist another runner. The same
ruling that ASA has under Rule 8 Sect 7 E. Exception, page 112. NCAA Rule 9 Sect 10d.

Sooo
Originial Post
<b>This occurred in an AFA Championship game Sunday. (ASA rules should be same.) 18U

Bases juiced, 1 out, 2 & 2 count on the batter. She swings, ball hits dirt, catcher
delays, umpires states "strike 3", then catcher throws the ball towards 1B. Ball ends up in
RF, with runner from 3rd scoring. Runner from 2B comes in also. Misses the plate, umpire
signals nothing, runner that had just scored from 3B, picks runner that was on 2B up,
and moves her to HP. Runner is called safe by PU, time is then called.

At this point, what would your call have been. (Yes, there is more to the story,
however, would like to hear reactions to the above events first.]</b>

By final ruling, we have R1 (at 3rd) scores, game was at that point tied. Umpire called
time at this point, R3 is now on 3rd and the batter at 2B. In ASA the ball would have
been dead, in NCAA the ball would have been live. The UIC
of the tournament allowed the
assist, so R2 also scored. This gave the batting team, visitors, the lead. However,
Home Team eventually won the game. In AFA the definition of a Base Runner is - <b>An
offensive player that is advancing, touching or returning to a base. Therefore I do
not see how she could have been called a runner. Her duties were over when she
touched.