Okay here is a discussion on the BB board that seems to be a lot of disagreement on and would like to clarify under our softball rules

SIT:R1 on 3rd R2 on 2nd 2outs B5(slow runner) up to the plate hits a grounder between F5 and F6, F6 make a diving play stops the ball and throws to F5 who put the tag on R2 sliding into 3rd for the 3rd out R1 has already crossed home before the put-out B5 about 4/5 down the baseline to 1st hears the out call on R2 quits running and heads back to the dugout to get his glove. F5 throws over to F3 who tags 1st.

Does this work under the 4th out appeal to nulify the run??


Thanks

Don

Yes Don.........

I would think that this would be allowed under ASA.

Joel

I agree with Gulf Coast Blue

The run would in this case would be nulified.

Can not find my 2001 book (ASA), but Points of Emphasis
Appeals M. goes along with what your talking about (pg120)

Don,

I don't know about ASA, but in Fed or USSSA I don't think you would allow this kind of 4th out.

I would allow an appeal of a baserunning error for the 4th out that might disallow a run, but for the arguements given in the BB list, I don't think this is a baserunning error. Once a third out is made no baserunning errors can occur. A missed base before the third out would be a baserunning error and therefor subject to an appeal.

Don't let the unpublished PBUC ruling get too deep in your head. I'm not sure it will last.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

Added statement: I just read the POE-Appeals in a 1999 ASA book. Nothing I can see would justify the 4th out in this sitch. Point M discussses a runner being appealed for leaving 3rd base early. Point A lists the types of appeals that may be made, and of the 4 not one of them is failing to advance to the next base after a third out is declared. I don't think the call is justified in ASA unless something has been added since 1999.
Roger

[Edited by Roger Greene on Mar 30th, 2001 at 08:39 PM]

Boy, we sure do agree in here a lot quicker than they do on the BB board. I was also looking back in past topics and Mike(IRISHMAFIA)had a similiar post and which he confer this would cancel the run but found it interesting he started the topic with fast-pitch only is there any reason this would be different in slow pitch?

These are just thoughts not dening the ruling but isnt this in conflict since in the rules it states that the next half inning starts immediatlly after the 3rd OUT is recorded but we are insisting the runner completes his run??

This rule also to me seems to advantage the defense, for actually making a bad choice on a play thought rules were made to keeps things even not to gave one side a advantage.

While I am venting on a another rain-out night should say I never have understand why we let a batter run to 1st after a drop 3rd strike especially at younger levels in the major this might effect 5 games a year at LL level I've seen this rule come into effect 5 times in an inning just doesnt make since to me.


Yes, I know we are hired guns to govern the rule not make them or interperit.


Finished Venting

Don

Well, I was all ready to post the following:

"Sorry, but in ASA the run counts.
Rule 5.5.B.3 NOTE: An appeal can be made after the third out in order to nullify a run.
This is not an appeal play, and there is nothing else in the rule book which would support nullifying the run."

And then I open up my case book and on page 5-3, there is play 5.5-7 which does support substituting a "force out" for the previously made third out, thus nullifying the run.

As I noted, there is nothing in the rule book, including the POE, to support this ruling and I still question it. Next week, there will be a guest instructor at the Delaware ASA State Umpire School. He is a member of the National Staff who is fundamental in producing the case book and I fully intend to bring this question to him.

As far as myself previously supporting such a play, I believe if you go back an read the play you will find that it involved a missed base "fourth out appeal", not the continuance (is that a word?) of a play.

Remember, in baseball and some softball rules, a runner can be considered to have "abandoned" the base to which they are advancing or entitled to if they discontinue their effort. In ASA, no such rule exist as a runner must enter dead ball territory to be ruled out for abandonment. If this is the case, then I can accept the throw to first as an appeal play. But if the runner is just slow, I don't believe the fourth out appeal would apply.

Though my opinion, I will make a serious attempt to see what the man who puts the book together has to say.

Mike,

If I missed quoted in earlier reply I am sorry I believe more to your words were "B3 failed to run to 1st F2 threw to F3 for the 4th out run doesnt count" I assumed this would be the same as the runner not completing his run.

From post dated Jan 23,2001


My Apologies

Don

[Edited by oppool on Mar 30th, 2001 at 09:05 PM]

Mike,
I'll buy the force out if it was a missed base during playing action. I don't think tht a runner is required to continue to advance after a third out ends an inning.

In the sitch presented the fourth out is a subseqent out, not an appeal of a baserunning infraction listed as the subject of an appeal, and is not even a force out.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

(I'm not even watching runners after a third out is recorded)

Don,

You're 100% right. I totally forgot about that play. Actually, that was when conversations needed a kickstart and I just quoted the case book.

I don't necessarily agree with the ruling and in this case, wasn't even paying attention to what I was doing.

Thanks for the slap up alongside the head, now my eyes are straight d:-)

Mike,
Maybe I'm missing what you meant, but what about 8.8.U? Doesn't this say that a runner is out for "abandonment" when he abandons his base AND enters dead ball territory? My understanding is that the runner must enter dead ball territory to be ruled out for abandonment.

I agree with Roger. Unless something very strange has happened, I'm not watching runners after another runner has made the third out. I'll go clean the rubber - none of us wants to use a dirty rubber, right?

Okay guys

Looking in the rule book I dont see where abandonment or failing to advance would be a appeal play for the 4th out.
stating 8-2d "When the BR fails to advance to 1st base and enters the team area after a batted fair ball" is when BR is to be called OUT. I dont believe this can be appealed if it happen after the 3rd out was recorded then play was over


JMHO


Don

[Edited by oppool on Mar 31st, 2001 at 01:22 AM]

Thanks, Steve.

I was beginning to wonder if I'd turned invisable.

Roger

Roger........


I think I was wrong in my original assesment.....

Thanks for clearing things up.

Joel

Steve M,

I think you must be missing something because the point you raised is exactly what you copied from my previous post. In ASA, a runner must enter dead ball territory to be declared out for abandonment.

And I agree that failing to touch a base one is "forced" to touch after the 3rd out of the inning probably shouldn't be an appeal play. I was simply stating that if I could handle that interpretation much easier than just continuing the play on a slow runner for a fourth out as a means to nullify a run.

Mike,
Good, that'll teach me to read & respond to a board after heading to the local barr/restaurant for dinner. It was a good meal & even seemed to get better as the night went on.
Hmmmmmmmmm

Roger,

Believe me I was not ingoring your post last night you seem to be the 1st to hit this head on with what I believe we all are on the same page with this now. What did happen I believe at least a couple times is we were posting about the same time and by time I updated the screen and saw your posted I had already or was still typing on my post.


Anyways will wait now and see what Mike can find out from the National guy to see how we are to call if this situation would come up.


Thanks

Don

Hey Mike

Just wondering if you had talked to the national person yet on a answer to this post


Thanks

Don

Tomorrow morning at breakfast in Middletown, DE

4th out supperceding the third out!
 

Gentleman:
Forgive me for reading into this play and seeing something that everyone appears to be missing. No matter when the third out is made,the play at first base is still a force play out for the third out. No matter when the run scores, it can not be counted when the play at first results in the third out "force play". There does not seem to be any rule rational, as in "first play in the infield" when an overthrow results that goes out of play, to be used as a timing situation. In my mind, even if this play appears to end the game, it cannot be counted.
Any other opinions to this statement?

DWSlick0223

Dave,

The question here is should you allow a fourth out at 1st base to count as the "final" out of an inning and disallow a run, even though the thrid out has already been recorded.

The rule book says that the defense only gets 3 outs to retire the offense and that when the third out is made, the inning is over. If the defense decided to get that 3rd out on a tag play which allows a runner to score, should we let them off the hook just because they were able to record a "fourth" out which happened to be a force?

The rule books give a specific example where a fourth out is allowed on an appeal play <b>against the runner that scored</b> which results in the run not counting, but I am hesitant to extend that example to any situation in which a fourth out could disallow a run. The defense gets 3 outs to retire the offense. They had better use them wisely.

Dave,

I have no idea what you are talking about concerning the "first play in the infield" comment.

However, as far as ASA is concerned, the team may continue with a play after the tag out to get an additional force for the fourth out of the inning. When I questioned my Regional UIC as there is no reference in the rule book, he reiterated the interpretation that basically means the defense has the option of going after the force as the final out of the inning even though they had executed a successful tag for an out in the same play.

This was over breakfast and he was a guest at our school this weekend. Personally, I'm glad I didn't decide to get confrontational about the interpretation as I got a little gift later in the morning d;-)

Mike

Appreciate your effort in getting a clarification on how ASA want this to be called but hope sometime in the future you or one of the other guys in here can discuss this with the writers and either get a better clarification in the rule book or change the ruling. It is still hard for me to understand why we are giving this advantage to the defense after a recorded 3rd out and a new inning has started as per rule book. Also dont understand how this would fall under any 4th out appeal rights by the defense since this was not a running violation that happen before the 3rd out occured.


Guess I am just to picky or dumb


Don

I'm with you Don.
(Ain't that scary???) {big G}
Roger Greene, Member UT

I agree. I would love to have something in the rule book just to cover this, but it is my belief that they will accept the "last out made" as the 3rd out of the inning for the purpose of scoring or disallowing a run.