Here is a situation which occured this weekend. ASA tourney, girls FP.

Batter lays down a bunt on or close to the line and runs for 1B. PU, nor BU say a word, don't know if PU ever pointed fair. A very loud fan directly behind the backstop yells "FOUL BALL". BU said runner slowed, but continued on to 1B where she was thrown out. Offensive coach complained that there was "verbal interference" by the fan causing the runner to slow, thus causing the out. In the end, the crew bought the arguement and returned the batter to hit, basically a "do-over". There was an ensuing argument of course from the defense, to no avail.

When told about this situation, my initial response was I no of no basis to call verbal INT on a fan. I've searched, but still can't justify this call. Can a fan commit an act which would result in a verbal INT/OBS call?

Other than reaching inside the fence and interfering with a play, there is no rule or umpire authority as it applies to non-participants.

Mike,

What's the difference between a fan yelling "foul ball" and a fan at a football or basketball game blowing a whistle? There has to be some kind of remedy when a fan tries to screw with someone like this.

That's why I always teach my girls that when the ball is hit, you run like you are being chased by your worst enemy to first base until your first base coach tells you to stop....which is never.....even on a strike out when there isn't a D3k in play, they still run the distance full strength.

Hope everyone had a productive weekend!

Ref Ump - the difference is that there is no rule in softball to address this, while there is a specific rule in football and basketball that addresses the whistle situation.

Also - if a fan blows a whistle in a football game, and some kids stop while others don't, you have a serious safety-related problem. So thus the rule that the play should be killed in that situation.

Fan "interfering" with HS game
 

Def coach should have protested umpires decision as a misaplication of the interference rule. As Mike pointed out under ASA code interference by a fan can only be by fan reaching into or entering the feild of play/live ball area.

Had a "simmilar but different" fan involvement incident in a High School game under NFHS rules this past Friday night.

Home coach comes to me and complain that a fan standing behind the screen behind home plate is the visiting team's F1's dad and he was a coach and he was giving signs to his DD. Under FED rules coaches and team members must be on the bench when not on the feild, batting, on-deck, etc.

I have never seen "Dad" on the bench as a member of the visiting teams coaching staff all season, so as far as I know he is just a "fan" and he can give all the signals he wants. I went the the visiting team's head coach and asked him point blank if F1's dad was a member of his teams' coaching staff and he denied it. I told Home coach I had no reason to consider him ("Dad") as anything but a fan and free to do as he pleases. I told my partner about it between innings and we watched to see if there was any contact between the visiting team coaching staff and "Dad" but there was not.

mcrowder's response aside, which provided a good example, who really gives a damn what they do in other sports?

I'm working ASA softball and will apply their rules. Talk about asking for a protest, this would qualify.

Really bad, especially TWO umpires falling for it.
Besides, it would be OBS if it affected the offense, INT only if it affected the defense.
Someone should congratulate the fielders who made the play for not listening.


[Edited by CecilOne on May 23rd, 2005 at 11:59 AM]

Mike,

You sound like noone who does softball does any other sports. I was just trying to draw a parallel between softball and another sport, but you made a mockery of it. Why are you like this? You need to deflate that ego of yours, especially if you want to help other umpires on the board understand the rules, etc.

Maybe you're one of the reasons I notice the same people post over and over, and others post once or twice and then seem to disappear.

Why am I confused here?

Rule 1 - Definitions
Interference. Interference is the act of an offensive player or team member, umpire or spectator that impedes, hinders, or confuses a defensive player attempting to execute a play. Contact is not necessary.

By the spectator calling "FOUL BALL", I have Spectator Interference as in my judgement, that impeded the defensive player in executing her play.

Protest lost. At least according to the book.

I think the confusion is in the wording. In the situation starting this thread the umpires ruled there was in some sense Verbal Obstruction, not Interference. The ASA rules as far as I can tell do not support this. There can be Verbal Interference that prevents a defensive player from making a play, but not Verbal Obstruction that prevents the offensive from running.

Now I am confused by your wording. Are you saying that only an "offensive spectator" can be guilty? How do you determine which type of spectator?

Also, the ASA rule refers to an umpire. Does that mean only an "offensive umpire" can be guilty of umpire interference?

In the words of the great soldier Artie Shaw: "Veddy Interestink!"

Let's try this again. The discussion is softball. Comparing different stick, ball and base games is one thing. Using a completely different outside source is another. If for no other reason, I would object to the comparisons just so I wouldn't have to hear some idiot coach or player scream, "but, Blue, the fielder's feet were in bounds!". And that happens more than a half-dozen times a season.

I don't care what other sports do because it has no affect on the game we are discussing. There are enough misinformed individuals running around the softball community as it is. The last thing we need as umpires is to dilute the understanding of the rules more than presently exist.

It has nothing to do with ego. It has to do with providing accurate information to those who want to learn.

TCannizzo - interference is, by definition (the one you copied here) an act that negatively affects THE DEFENSE. Obstruction is an act that negatively affects the OFFENSE. Now go look at the definition of Obstruction. Do you see the word Spectator?

Obstruction is not simply - "Interference by the defense" - it's a completely different rule.

I'm not saying which type of spectator, you are quoting the interference rule (which only applies to a defensive player making a play). If you read the initial situation, the defense made the play, it was the runner who stopped. The obstruction rule does not allow for a spectator to cause obstruction (verbally or otherwise). The same can be said of an umpire.

OK, I won't play with the words, but if I understand correctly, you would call Spectator Interference, if a spectator called "FOUL BALL", even though the ball might be Fair, and the defensive player got confused in executing the defensive play?

Read ASA POE #33
 

There's nothing there about spectator VERBAL interference... only PHYSICAL interference. Fans can say whatever they want until they become a team member or an offensive player.

I'm only saying that the rules allow for their to be Spectator Interference, not Spectator Obstruction. As far as calling interference if a spectator calls "FOUL BALL", even though the ball is fair; I doubt I would call it. Spectators yell things all the time, unless they get physically involved in the game, I tend to ignore them. I have enough to concentrate on in the game without worrying about what the spectators are doing.

Re: Read ASA POE #33
 

Where in the rule does it say PHYSICAL interference?

Where in the rule does it preclude VERBAL interference?

It does say spectator and it does say confuse.

And you raise a veddy interestink point about a spectator morphing into a team member. Coaches who give instruction must be in the dugout. If a spectator is giving instruction, then I would judge the spectator to be a team member at that point, and no longer a spectator.

spectator (from http://www.dictionary.com)

n 1: a close observer; someone who looks at something (such as an exhibition of some kind); "the spectators applauded the performance"; "television viewers"; "sky watchers discovered a new star" [syn: witness, viewer, watcher, looker

Any action that impedes, hinders or confuses a player to is no longer an "observer". They become a team member, which puts them subject to OBS.

So, you would knowingly ignore a rule?

You're making a real stretch to try to define a loud-mouthed and possibly unsporting spectator as a team member.

Back to the original scenario, while I sympathize with the actions of the umpires, and agree that it was probably "fair" I don't see where it is supported by the rules.

The rules do cover spectator interference, even when it is pseudo-obstruction - that is, bases may be awarded. But this is physical intrusion into the game, not yelling from the stands.

Barring local rules regulating fan behavior and consequences, I think your only recourse is to suspend the game until the park officials deal with the disruptive fan. As far as the play itself, it stands. Runners should be paying attention to their coaches, not to voices from behind.

....just because you have too much to concentrate on and worry about??????

Yes I am.

Re: Re: Read ASA POE #33
 

** Message deleted. Have a nice day. **

[Edited by SRW on May 23rd, 2005 at 04:27 PM]

Ok, you got me. I guess everytime a spectator says anything to the defense, I should call interference. If a defensive player is going for a ball and the fans yell "I got it" and the defensive player misses the ball...sorry interference...Batters Out. This would encourage the defensive fans to yell at their own players to get outs on the offense. After all how can I tell whos spectators are whos. I'm sorry, but there are things that are allowed in the rules that require a bit of judgement. I can throw players out for questioning balls and strikes, but if a catcher says to his pitcher "That looked good to me" or I hear from the bench "Come on blue that pitch was high"...I'm not throwing anyone out unless it gets to be just about every pitch although the rules 'ALLOW for IT'.

[Edited by tzme415 on May 24th, 2005 at 08:13 AM]

Well there has certainly been some interesting responses on this one.

I was un-swayed by the decision as rendered on the field Saturday, I didn't then nor now see any justification for the call as made. The arguement of "in fairness" was brought up, but as CecilOne pointed out, this didn't slow the defense from making the play. Coachfanmom also pointed out the D3K instance where her girls are taught to follow the base coaches instruction. I have seen many plays (as I'm sure we all have) where a dead ball is called andplay doesn't cease, or IF is called but nobody seems to hear it. As Mike notes unless a fan physically hinders play, I can not justify trying to rectify a mis-cue by a player. If I as an umpire have to ignore comments from the stands, and do ignore them, shouldn't the players also?

What really got me to wondering about this was not was the right call made (it wasn't), but who made it. This one was called by our area UIC, and supported by the tornament UIC and tournament director! I suppose even in the heat of battle even the boss can get one wrong!

That was a call from the "heart" and not the "mind"......but it is refreshing to know that you "blues" do have a "heart" ;)

Are we presuming that the " spectator " who called " Foul Ball " was screaming to decieve the defense? Was the spectator, in fact just telling the batter that the ball was foul so she could go back and bat again - with no intent to change the outcome of the at bat?
If you really want to stretch the outcome by your call, call Verbal Interfence on the Offensive dugout claiming you heard the " foul ball " call come from that direction. Let the Offensive Coach deal with the fan who cost him a hit/out.( I cite 2-32 here ).
Or . . . . the other option is to call Verbal Obstruction on the defensive dugout claiming you heard the " foul ball " call come from THEIR direction, attempting to confuse B1 so they could get the out.
( I cite 2-36 here ).
Who do you want to punish and send the message to - offense or defense?
Do you really know who is at fault here?
This was clearly a HTBT play.
What it can never be is a " do over ".
Nowhere in the book is there an allowance for a " do over ".

Just offering more to chew on.

Just my humble opinion.

[Edited by officialtony on May 24th, 2005 at 09:28 AM]

Speaking ASA

Spectator interference is specifically indentified, defined and remedied in 8.2.N, 8.5.L and POE #33. In each and every instance it involves the spectator trespassing into the field of play.

The umpire does not have any authority on what happens outside the fence that doesn't involve a coach, player or an otherwise defined team member.

__________________________________________________ _____
As far as authority outside the fence - I will take issue with that statement.
If a fan repeatedly attempts to distract or irritate members of either team, I can and will have them removed from the park or cease play until they do.
I claim that authority under 10-1-6 . . .
" The umpire's right to disqualify players or to remove nonplayers for objecting to decisions or for unsporting conduct is absolute. "
I think that is quite clear.

If you were not responding to my post, then excuse my response.

Thanks.

[Edited by officialtony on May 24th, 2005 at 10:39 AM]

Here, our local rules give the umpire authority to eject fans (i.e. order them to leave the area) for certain behavior, but speaking official ASA, the umpire has no such authority.

The rule you quoted is, I believe, a Fed rule and you are (in my view) reading waaaayyy too much into "nonplayer" that what Fed intends. They merely mean a member of the team, coaching staff, or bench personnel not limited to just the players.

Compare to 10-1-1 where it names them, And, think about it. Many ASA games are played in public parks. Fed games are generally played on public property (school property). What authority does an umpire have over the general public merely because a game is in progress?

If things are getting out of control, the game should be suspended and law enforcement or other administrative authorities (e.g. school AD, tournament director, etc.) should be summoned.

[Edited by Dakota on May 24th, 2005 at 11:01 AM]

OK, Here's more on this particular game. I didn't report it in the original post cause it has no bearing on the play in question. (Am I hijacking my own thread here?, oh well let's do it).

Later in this particular game the fans did start getting out of hand with insults to each other as well as to the players and I'm sure umpires. The TD stepped in, not sure if he was called to the field or if so by whom, but he talked with both head coaches and told them to get their respective fans under control or he would declare a double forfiet. I suppose he could do that, but I would rather have seen the threat of clearing all fans and finishing the game!

Just glad I wasn't a part of that game. I did call games for both of these teams, and the fans from one of them were very vocal. Glad none of this escalated into violence, it well could have.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by officialtony


Mike,
Were you responding to my post?
If so, the intent of my post was to suggest some remedies to the initial thread posted. Not having been there, I would not venture a guess as to what I would have done. What I would NOT do is get into a discussion with a fan. I might let the coaches know that if a fan repeatedly attempts to alter the course of play by those tactics, the teams will suffer the consequences by my decisions. I do have the authority to administer penalties upon teams that Obstruct or Interfere. And I can make that case on any calls that I deem came from the dugouts on either side - or their team members.

The post was general in nature citing the ASA's rules under which the scenario offered occured. The conversation has become so diluted, it would be fruitless to try to address a particular post.

Quote:

__________________________________________________ _____ As far as authority outside the fence - I will take issue with that statement. If a fan repeatedly attempts to distract or irritate members of either team, I can and will have them removed from the park or cease play until they do. I claim that authority under 10-1-6 . . . " The umpire's right to disqualify players or to remove nonplayers for objecting to decisions or for unsporting conduct is absolute. " I think that is quite clear.

Yeah, if you weren't playing the game under ASA rules. It is quite clear that there is no such rule in ASA.

What happens outside the fence involving the fans is not my concern. That would be an issue for a site coordinator, TD, AD or law enforcement.

As Tom noted, many a field is on public property. There have been lawsuits lost over this issue, so why would I waste my time. I have enough to handle on the field. If the idiots want to act like a$$holes in the stands, let them. If it begins to jeopardize the safety of either team member or umpire crew, I call the police, meet them when they enter and offer to sign any complaint necessary. BUT, that is the act of a citizen, not the umpire.

Before we ever leave headed for a tournament, we have a parent/coach/team meeting and I express HIGHLY the attitudes that I expect out of each person, including players, coaches AND parents. If I hear of any of our parents behaving in any questionable manner, I myself put a stop to it before anyone else gets the opportunity. I have been known not to even allow a player on my team because of how their PARENTS behave at tournaments. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It is sad for the girls because some of them have a real chance at a great future if it weren't for the sour attitudes that some have. But we have a much better time with less qualified players with good attitudes than with disgruntled players and parents. :D

Have the coach help you
 

I've handled unruley fans/parents like this:

Inbetween batters, innings, whenever you have a dead ball opportunity:

Hey coach, can I talk to you for a second? There's some fans sitting on your side that are getting a little out of hand. I don't want to have to stop the game to deal with them, so can you handle that for me and get them to behave? If you can't, I'll resolve it... but I don't think you want me to do that. Thanks.

9 times out of 10 the coach is MORE than happy to handle it himself/herself, and not have me intervene. The last time I had to use this, the coach told me an inning later that he handled it, and the fan left the stands. I thanked him, and no one else was the wiser.

Folks,
You are correct. I was quoting FED rules. I apologize.
Those are the games I do.
Please forgive my intrusion into the post.
I do believe the umpire has a right to control fans by the natue of our rules - whether ASA or Fed. I only hope I apply them correctly.
In ASA, what is the recourse for an umpire for unruly fans throwing things at players or engaging in verbal bantering back and forth to incite players?

Again my apologies.

Don't care about verbal bantering, the coach should control his/her players.

However, throwing something onto the field now brings the problem between the fences. Now the problem is within my realm as the umpire.

I would stop the game and call the coaches together. If one is available, I will have someone go for a TD, AD, site coordinator and inform him/her that the game is suspended until the situation is under control. If on site, I will notify the UIC of my actions. If necessary, I will call the police. I always have a cell phone in my equipment bag which is always within a short dash. Okay, so I don't dash anymore, but you get the point.

No need to apologize. You weren't intruding; you were participating. Please continue. If I sounded annoyed in any way by your citng the Fed rule, then I apologize. I was just clarifying.

Many of us call for Fed, along with other organizations. Most of the softball sanctioning bodies are represented on this board by umpires. Even (ugh) USFA. - That was for you, Glen! ;)

Dakota,
Thanks.
I did not take offense.
I just realized I was outside my domain.

I will try to acquire ASA training.
It will add to my resume.


Thanks to all.

Many of us call for Fed, along with other organizations. Most of the softball sanctioning bodies are represented on this board by umpires. Even (ugh) USFA. - That was for you, Glen! ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for the plug, Tom. :D

Ok....Just so you ALL know....I was soooooooo thinking about you and this thread last night at our game!!! It was so funny I just had to roll laughing!

Of course I was already having a GREAT night because after months and months of hard work and determination, I finally got my girls (league ball....not travel) fired up for a game. They finally acted like they were there to play ball and that they did!! Final score 15-4. 43 out of 65 pitches were STRIKES!!!! woohoooo!!! I was not only a proud Coach but a proud fan and MOM too!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Ok....anyways....back to the SITCH that had me thinking about ya'll. Opposing team had a grandfather outside the fence watching the game. When they started getting beat pretty badly, the yelling started. I mean this man had a voice like none I have ever heard before. It was like thunder. The kids up on the T-ball field could hear him, he was so loud. At first he was just yelling at their team to get the ball. This and that. It was annoying and distracting because it was coming from the outside of the fence and a lot of the opposing team was getting confused as to where the plays were to be made at and they couldn't hear their coach over this man. All you heard was HIS voice in the entire park. But then he started in telling them how sorry they were and putting them down. I mean YELLING at the top of his lungs. Now I'm a loud woman....that's just the coach in me, but he by far surpassed me. It was almost comical at first but then once he started putting the girls down and the confusion started, I felt there were safety issues. I mean it scared the girls to hear him yell and when a ball was hit to them and he started yelling to get it they would freak out! Finally opposing coach had enough, called time and EVERYONE knew what it was about....she went to the fence, and the man KNEW what was about to happen so without a word having to be said, he walked away from the fence. Then all the girls on BOTH teams, all coaches, all fans and even the Umpires all started clapping! So we all laughed it off and after a few minutes, he came back, sat down and watch the rest of the game without saying a word.

Sunny,

Thanks for your story! We have been going round and round on this thread about when we should or should not (and what we CAN or CANNOT do by rule). But your story points out that ideally, we should not have to deal with fans.

Of course we don't always have an ideal situation, do we? I agree with most on here who have said that most of the time we should just ignore anything going on outside the fence. If someone is getting disruptive to the point where I just can't ignore it, then I am going to the coach (both of them if need be) or a league/tournament director (we never have ADs at our high school games unfortunatly) and ask them to get it under control.

We can argue all day over whether or not I have rule book authority to toss a fan; but I do have authority to stop the game until someone takes care of the problem. Or, as Mike points out if the situation were to warrent I will call the police (I am pretty sure that outside the fence IS their jurisdiction) and make a complaint when they arrive. I have never had it go that far yet, but that is my standing game plan.

There you go.