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-   -   walk steal? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/20427-walk-steal.html)

softbllmom Wed May 18, 2005 03:17pm

This forum is great thanks for the answers to my previous question.
Last nite we had a runner who was walked....catcher threw ball back to pitcher she had the ball in her glove and the runner went right around 1st and stole 2nd.
I thought once the ball was in her glove the play was dead?
This is a girls league 12-14 year olds. As far as I can tell we are going by fast pitch rules. I have never seen anything like this league.



Dakota Wed May 18, 2005 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by softbllmom
I thought once the ball was in her glove the play was dead?
Speaking ASA FP. No, it isn't. The ball is live. The look back rule goes into effect when the batter-runner reaches 1st base, but this runner did not violate the look back rule. Her advance was legal.

mcrowder Wed May 18, 2005 04:04pm

BR could have scored have scored had she kept running and F1 never made a play on her.

Skahtboi Thu May 19, 2005 10:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Quote:

Originally posted by softbllmom
I thought once the ball was in her glove the play was dead?
Speaking ASA FP. No, it isn't. The ball is live. The look back rule goes into effect when the batter-runner reaches 1st base, but this runner did not violate the look back rule. Her advance was legal.

Actually, this is not limited to just ASA. As far as I know, this is true of all codes.

Dakota Thu May 19, 2005 10:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Skahtboi
Actually, this is not limited to just ASA. As far as I know, this is true of all codes.
I wasn't sure but what there were still a few codes who had the LBR go into effect when the pitcher has the ball in the circle, leaving out the BR reaching 1st part.

NSABlue Thu May 19, 2005 11:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by softbllmom
As far as I can tell we are going by fast pitch rules. I have never seen anything like this league.



What set of fast pitch rules are you playing under?
ASA, NSA, NFHS, PONY, Little League, Babe Ruth? It will help everyone if you can find out. That way,you can get all your questions answered for the particular league you're playing in.

coachfanmom Thu May 19, 2005 02:11pm

ok....I need clarification on this one because we do it all the time. If I have a runner on third and 1 and 2 are unoccupied and my girl gets a walk, she KNOWS to automaticlly take off headed for 2nd. But I was under the impression that if the pitcher has the ball in the circle by the time she reaches first that the play is now dead and she can't advance to 2nd.

mcrowder Thu May 19, 2005 02:27pm

Nope.

The pitcher's mound is not a "stop button". The ball is not dead. In fact, it is never dead until the umpire says "Dead ball!" or "Foul Ball!"

LBR kicks in when the A) the pitcher has the ball in the circle, B) the BR has achieved first base, and C) no play is being made on a runner by the pitcher.

At the moment LBR kicks in, any runner stationary on a base must stay there. Any runner stationary between bases must decide which way to run (1-mississippi, 2-mississippi) and run that way without stopping (unless pitcher makes a play, thus removing LBR). Any runner not stationary between bases may A) continue running in that direction or B) stop - decide which way to run (1-mississippi, 2-mississippi) and run that way without stopping.

So, to stretch this to the ridiculous, a walked BR may, while the ball is in the circle and the pitcher is not making a play, run past first, past 2nd, past 3rd, stop inches from home plate, finally hear her coach yelling "You missed first, you missed first!", stop, decide which way to go, run to 3rd, 2nd, and stop on 1st, and never violate the LBR. (Of course, if at any time during this the pitcher leaves the circle or makes a play (including a fake throw), the LBR is off until F1 reenters the circle and doesn't make a play --- giving the runner the legal ability to stop again, decide again, and proceed, even if she made a stop before LBR was taken off).

SRW Thu May 19, 2005 02:31pm

mcrowder: Great description and explination! http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/praise2.gif


coachfanmom Thu May 19, 2005 02:32pm

see I learn something new here everyday!!! That's good to know.....ohhhhhhhhh why can't I have a game tonight????;)

streamdoc Thu May 19, 2005 02:35pm

The LBR would not impact the BR that draws a walk, proceeds to 1st, then to 2nd without stopping. However, would the LBR go into effect for the other runners on base (3rd in this case) if the pitcher has control of the ball within the cirlce, and does not "make a play" on the BR proceeding to 2nd? ASA Rule 8-7-T defines the LBR as going into effect when "the BR has TOUCHED 1st base or has been declared out, and the pitcher has possession and control of the ball within the pitcher's circle." So, the way that I read that would give a free pass to the BR to reach 2nd because so long as the pitcher doesn't make a ply on her, the runner on 3rd has to stay on the bag. Is this right?

CecilOne Thu May 19, 2005 03:26pm

Yep.

mcrowder Thu May 19, 2005 03:30pm

Troy, that's a LITTLE misleading. Only in that you say LBR would not IMPACT a walked BR who goes to 2nd. Technically you're right, but I think that statement could easily be misread to lead someone to assume LBR is not in EFFECT on that runner. It is. In effect, that is. But it doesn't IMPACT her unless she violates what she's allowed to do while LBR is in effect.

LBR goes "into effect" on BOTH runners the moment BR touches 1st - and BOTH runners are allowed to do exactly what I describe in the above post. (IE - if your runner at 3rd was moving slowly toward the plate at the moment BR touched 1st, she could still continue toward home, stop once, decide, and then proceed either home or back to third).

Regarding your "free pass" comment - an astute defense will have pitcher face 3rd base on this play. When jogging BR gets about 4 steps from 2nd - fire to 2nd for the easy out, and right back to pitcher (or home if the runner takes off). Most BR's are shocked to see the ball coming, and freeze (failing to return to 1st, and get tagged). There's no reason for defense to make this a free pass if they can throw and catch with any success at all.

Another version of this that I like much less is throwing the ball to 1st baseman, who stands 1 foot past the bag at first. BR can't very well proceed past first or get tagged out, and that's usually too close for a coach to feel comfortable sending the runner from 3rd.

I implore all of you coaches out there to devise a successful defense to this so that offenses cut out the nonsense and we can simply get back to playing ball.

Andy Thu May 19, 2005 05:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by coachfanmom
ok....I need clarification on this one because we do it all the time. If I have a runner on third and 1 and 2 are unoccupied and my girl gets a walk, she KNOWS to automaticlly take off headed for 2nd. But I was under the impression that if the pitcher has the ball in the circle by the time she reaches first that the play is now dead and she can't advance to 2nd.
When you use this play, and the pitcher is not making a play on either runner, the runner on third must commit one way or the other once the batter runner reaches first.

I had a team trying to use this play last weekend, but the runner on third started juking back and forth after the BR had reached first and the pitcher was not making any play.

DEAD BALL....RUNNERS OUT!

coachfanmom Thu May 19, 2005 09:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy
Quote:

Originally posted by coachfanmom
ok....I need clarification on this one because we do it all the time. If I have a runner on third and 1 and 2 are unoccupied and my girl gets a walk, she KNOWS to automaticlly take off headed for 2nd. But I was under the impression that if the pitcher has the ball in the circle by the time she reaches first that the play is now dead and she can't advance to 2nd.
When you use this play, and the pitcher is not making a play on either runner, the runner on third must commit one way or the other once the batter runner reaches first.

I had a team trying to use this play last weekend, but the runner on third started juking back and forth after the BR had reached first and the pitcher was not making any play.

DEAD BALL....RUNNERS OUT!

Only time my 3rd base runner will proceed to home is if they make a play on my walked batter that's going to 2nd....if they make the throw to get her out then we score.... You'd be amazed at how many times this play works in league ball....they still haven't caught on and only two more games to go.

aevans410 Fri May 20, 2005 06:45am

Sunny, it works well in baseball too (at the LL level anyway). THe pitchers just don't seem to want to hold onto that ball. :)

[Edited by aevans410 on May 20th, 2005 at 08:40 AM]

mcrowder Fri May 20, 2005 07:31am

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by coachfanmom
You'd be amazed at how many times this play works in league ball....they still haven't caught on and only two more games to go. [/B]
And you'd be amazed how many times the teams in our area have turned this into an out and runner still on third, or sometimes 2 outs. Pitcher faces shortstop, and waits until BR is about 4 steps from 2nd and fires to 2nd - usually BR is so surprised that she's an easy out, and the shortstops or 2nd basemen are certainly capable of throwing home in time to nail a runner that leaves the third base bag about the time she's tagging a runner out (to put that play in perspective, this is exactly the same distances, for both runner and fielder, that you'd have if a runner tried to steal 2nd, but waited until catcher had the ball before leaving the base --- if that is, in your mind, an easy out, so should the play on your runner on 3rd be)

No one even tries this around here anymore, it is such an easy play.

coachfanmom Fri May 20, 2005 08:12am

I have a feeling that next year I won't get away with it as easy and maybe not even my next game because the other coach is pretty smart it's just getting the girls to understand and do as we say that's the problem.....this is most of their first years to play fastpitch so sometimes I wanna pull my hair out and find myself halfway on the field before realizing where I am lol...I do hope they learn to put us out at least once before the season is over....I'd NEVER try that move in tournament ball....I might be top of the barrel in League ball but in tournament ball I'm afraid we fall down towards the bottom.....but still have fun at it.

:D

[Edited by coachfanmom on May 20th, 2005 at 09:22 AM]

mcrowder Fri May 20, 2005 08:52am

When you get to tourney play, watch the opposing catcher's throwdown. You may still find you can steal with most of your batters on about a third to half of the catchers (maybe more if you're 12U). With a runner on 3rd, the steal on the pitch after a walk is MUCH safer than just taking 2nd on the walk itself. The throw from catcher to 2nd to catcher is much more likely to score a run (if they actually throw it to 2nd, and not a cutoff player) than pitcher to 2nd to catcher (not to mention that on the walk play, R1 has to be glued to the base, whereas she can be leading off when catcher is throwing the ball).

You never mentioned the age of your team, or where you're at in the country.

coachfanmom Fri May 20, 2005 09:18am

Quote:

You never mentioned the age of your team, or where you're at in the country.
Opps! We are 12U (my daughter is 11, turns 12 in July so one more year to stay down) We are in South Mississippi. The next 6 weekends have us playing in Ocean Springs MS, Saucier MS, Orange Grove MS, Biloxi MS, Bayou View MS, and Meridian MS.

I also have a little sister that is 14 that is one of the best pitchers in South MS....I'm sure that in a few years you will hear about her. She plans on going to LSU. Both will be on the High school team next year. Little sis as starting pitcher for Varsity and mine as starting pitcher for JV. We are a ball playin family. Our mom (actually my step mom but I don't view her that way) is the ASA Ump and High School coach for our rival team :mad: So this next year will be one interesting year when we play her. Gonna be wild!!! :D

CecilOne Fri May 20, 2005 11:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy
When you use this play, and the pitcher is not making a play on either runner, the runner on third must commit one way or the other once the batter runner reaches first.

I had a team trying to use this play last weekend, but the runner on third started juking back and forth after the BR had reached first and the pitcher was not making any play.

DEAD BALL....RUNNERS OUT!

I know it's a typo, but just for any rookies or ... who might be reading RUNNER'S OUT! - singular, only one out allowed on RCR.

coachfanmom Fri May 20, 2005 11:36am

it's amazing what a difference a small little " ' " makes on that statement ;)


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