I'm at work and left my rule book at the house this morning..... can someone give me the Pitching rules on the arm movements of a legal pitch.....I'm still trying to understand where the "extra movement past the hip" came from on that call last night.....why oh why do I let such things eat away at me????? Is there a pill I can take to calm my nerves for incompetentcy? lol.....Don't get me wrong Blue.....I have the utmost respect for those that study your softball bibles lol.....but for those that feel that they are just out there to try and prove how "knowledgeable" they are without the backup power of a rulebook just blow my mind......

We lost the game by 1 RUN (hahaha) last night....so devistating to my pitcher whos pitching 40mph at 11 years old and is accurate when given the proper instructions....breaks my heart.

[Edited by coachfanmom on May 18th, 2005 at 11:37 AM]

First, there's no extra movement past the hip rule - your umpire was drunk. Suggestion for the future. Read, reread, and re-reread this rule. Next umpire that tries to F---ool with your pitcher's motion (assuming your pitcher's motion is legal!) should have his instructions protested. Then if you lose the game because of this, you have a backup plan.

Second - I'd love to ask your question, but truly, the ASA rulebook on the pitcher's motion is 8 pages long.

darn it....thought it was shorter than that....guess I couldn't beg and plead for a fax huh??? lol..... Thanks for answering. I can't wait till our next game....two more to go then tournament ball begins.....then we can have some fun with people that KNOW what they are doing at least.

Simply put:

The pitch starts when the hands separate.
The pitcher may take a backswing before beginning the forward windmill (assuming windmill motion here).
Once the forward motion starts, the pitcher may not stop or reverse the motion prior to delivery of the pitch.
The pitcher must not throw sidearm.
The pitcher must not make another revolution of the arm after release.
The pitcher must not make two complete revolutions with the arm before release.

This part of the rule is only about 1 page long, but I'd rather not type the whole thing. ;)

PS: "Times past the hip" is not in the rule.

Anywhere.

At all.

Not present.

Nonexistent.

Nowhere to be found.

LOL....think I got it!! Guess I should have made her SHOW me that part last night but I was already convenced she was on drugs that I just tole my pitcher to continue on as she has done for the past 5 years and not listen to it.....but now curiosity is getting to me as to WHERE in the world she got that interpretation of it at.......thanks you guys!! Think I'll go to the field tonight just to sit and watch what she calls tonight.

You'd be surprised what I've heard from PARTNERS.

"She can't go past the hip on the backswing."
"She can go past the hip on the backswing, but her elbow can't." (I suppose this rule was put in for the doublejointed pitchers).
"She can't lift her hands above her shoulders with the ball in her glove before the backswing."

My response to any oddness --- "Really? Based on what rule. I'll give you my paycheck for the day if you can find that rule. You pay me $10 if you're wrong." I've yet to pay up. And the $10 they lose is better than any clinic.

LOL....wish you were near us....sounds like you'd be a great one to have during a game. My daughter started pitching at 6....is 11 now.....has some "attitude" issues but makes a darn good pitcher when left alone to do her thing. Guess that's what really got to me last night was here was this "wanna be" who couldn't make it trying to tell someone that has been pitching for 5 years with instruction from professionals how to pitch a ball. Funny how she has never been called on an IP before. But that's part of the game....we can't all always agree but it sure is nice to have an ump with a brain that knows how to use it.

Rule 6.3.K (FP)
"The pitcher must not make another revolution after pitching the ball."

Rule 6.3.I (Modified)
"The pitcher shall release the ball on the first forward swing of the arm past the hip."

Rule 6.3.D (SP)
"The pitcher must deliver the ball on the first forward motion...past the hip."

POE #40 - Pitching (FP)(pg 152)
"The pitcher's hand may go past the hip twice, as long as there are not two complete revolutions. The wrist may not be farther from the hip than the elbow."


Slow Pitch Plate Mechanics - Page 209
In determining an illegal pitch - "Was the ball released first time past the hip?"

she drops her hands down to her side (not "past" her hip) then brings them back up pointing her glove towards homeplate, then drops ball arm directly behind her (passing the hip once) as far as possible then makes the forward revolution as she pushes off the mound releasing the ball and pulls up to end the pitch....only going "past" the hip two times with just one revolution.

Thanks tcannizzo.....I've been wondering where the "hip" part came into play from....will look that up when i get home tonight.

Sounds like the old "double pump" motion. Completely legal. She can rock her arm back and forth as many times as she likes (within the alloted 10 seconds), and still be legal. As a double-pumper, she should be careful not to bring her hands together for a second time as that would result in an illegal pitch.

correct!! and I have tried to explain to her that doing that a lot will wear her out more and it's not an every pitch situation.....sometimes she says she just needs that extra Boost that it gives her.....but she knows not to bring her hands together but to start the pitch.....

When do the hands separate in this? If they have separated before this begins, this is an illegal pitch. She cannot reverse the forward motion once the hands separate. She can take a backswing, but once she starts forward from the backswing, she may not reverse again.Tcannizzo, you posted some rules for slowpitch and modified pitch. They do have regulations regarding passing the hip. I was assuming coachfanmom was asking about fastpitch. The regulation there is she may not make two complete revolutions. No mention of the hip. The mention in the POE is negative - refuting the "can't pass the hip twice" - recognizing that this is a common myth.

Also, the quote above is wrong, assuming the hands have separated. Once the hands separate, there can be no reversal of the forward motion. The "double pump" after tghe hands have separated is illegal.

Had a double pumper last night. Approaches the plate with hands separarated. Starts arms swinging before hands come together. Hands come together above her head, then separate to begin the full windmill. Perfectly legal.


Right, just pointing out references to hip. So, we do not have a drunken umpire, we just have an umpire who is either applying a pitching rule from the wrong division (SP, MFP) or misapplying the FP rule based on his interpretation of the POE.

I'm so confused now I couldn't tell you how she was pitching!!! I'll just leave it alone until next game. I'll have my asa certified mom there to argue weather or not it was legal or illegal and let it go from there. Wait until I tell you what happened last night in the 16U girls game (after the boss leaves that is)

Just to pick a nit coachfanmom......In your original post, you lost by one "run", not point. There....now you are nit free. LOL.

huh?

I wasn't implying that I lost the game because of what happened.....heck it wasn't my pitcher that lost it....it was that dreaded drop third strike rule that kills me!!! First inning we had 4 or 5 strike outs before we could get out of the inning!! Remember this is league ball and I can't find one girl on my team that can catch a 40 mph ball **ugh***.

I was just asking about the illegal pitch so I'll know for tournament ball (although she has pitched the same way for 5 years and this is the first illegal pitch she has been approached on).... I've got a HUGE headache and have finally had to just let it all go....water under the bridge that I hope doesn't rise to flood me out in the future!

Seems that this must be one of those things that just depends on who you have behind the plate.....and since it's the first time in 5 years and it's from a rookie ump....Imma stick with the way she pitches and not worry any more!!

Thanks for the help you guys!! You were all wonderful to give me your pointers and I'll print it out and carry it with me for future reference if I need to.

Dan was picking on your use of the word POINT when it should have been RUN. It was in fun.

You'll notice I qualified the comment by "after the hands separate." In your case, all the swinging is done before the hands come together. I agree this is legal, but not what I call a "double pump." Don't know if that is what coachfanmom's DD is doing. That is why I asked her - when did the hands separate?

This is what is illegal:
Hands together.
Hands separate.
Backswing.
Forward swing.
Another Backswing ---- ding, ding, ding, IP.

I'm sure she'll be able to help since she will be able to actually see the pitcher.

Just remember this: In ASA, the pitch does not begin until the hands separate. Up to that point, the pitcher can do pretty much anything except fake a pitch.

:confused::confused::confused::confused:
Ever analyzed something too long that it all becomes one big blur????? lol

Calgon!!! Take me away!!!!
:p:p:p:p

ok ok ok......I have this problem.....lol....I just can't let things go until I understand it no matter how hard I try.....lol.....and I THINK I got it now.....

somebody give me the page number and rule for the "reversal of the forward motion" thing...... I might be eating crow here unless I'm just making it all up in my head as to what she does..... will get her to demonstrate her pitch to me again this afternoon but it seems to me like she might be IP after all...... I have read and re-read my original post on her pitching motion over and over and I do now think she is IPing because of the "reversal of the forward motion thing".....HELP!!!!

The rule you want is ASA Rule 6-3-C (Fast Pitch). It is on page 83 of my Umpire Edition rule book. It says,Some overofficious umpires interpret this to mean "no backswing" but the backswing is specifically permitted in rule 8-3-D. But it does prohibit reversing the forward motion after the backswing.

Ok...if my memory serves me correctly....this is what I THINK she does.....

1. feet on plate with hands separate to each side
2. swings hand together in front of her (start of pitch?)
3. drops hands to each side
4. brings hands back out in front pointing glove towards home plate (is this what you consider a forward motion??)
5. drops ball arm into her backswing (reversal of forward motion????)
6. then windmills to deliver the pitch



Legal or Not??

Not yet, assuming the hands are still together.
If the hands have separated, this is the start of the pitch.
If hands have separated, then this is the beginning of the pitching forward motion. There can be no stop or reversal after this.
Not legal.

ok...guess now I need to have her demonstrate her pitch to me in slow motion again so that I can see if I described it correctly or not.....if so....we have to change so that either when she does step 2 that she doesn't bring her hands together at that point until she points the glove or just cut out that movement all together......will let this topic die until tomorrow!! hahahaha

Thanks Tom!! You've been a big help!!

If she is actually doing as I described..... then the umpire was correct to say it was an IP but not because of the reason she gave about passing the hip more than twice but because of stopping the forward motion. Correct?

Thinking about actually going to the school at lunch just so she can show me and get this OFF my mind....LOL

Correct.

ok........had to do it!! Went to the school....called her out of class....lol.....now is that just crazy or what?? anyways.... told her to demonstrate her pitch for me AGAIN...lol.... I was WRONG WRONG WRONG on my description.... I put that extra step in there.... she's NOT pitching illegal...... this is actually how it goes....

1. feet on plate, hands apart at each side
2. brings hands up together pointed at catcher
3. leaves glove pointed at catcher, drops ball all the way back into her backswing then windmills and delivers the pitch.

Perfectly legal pitch.....

What the ump was calling IP was she was saying the pitch started BEFORE her hands come together while they are at their side trying to use the POE on page 152 as her hand CAN'T pass her hip but 2 times....

I am confidant in my pitchers technique now that she is pitching a legal pitch and will argue it to my death .... if this ump wants to call an IP on EVERY pitch she pitches then we will have ONE heck of a long game next Tuesday night! lol

Thanks you guys and sorry for my description mistake but she goes so fast its hard to catch it all....lol

Now I want to call an IP, just to see your reaction :)

This really has you riled up.

LMBO!!! You wouldn't dare!! lol:eek:

But you are right.... it does get me riled up.... just something in my blood I guess.... if I'm right, admit I'm right but if I'm wrong then I want to know why so I can fix it.... just the kinda person I am.... Ball is our life.... eat, drink, live for softball!!! If any of you are in South MS let me know.... we'll show ya a darn good time ;)

Ummm, well, OK, (he says to himself), be nice....

Or what! :D

Of course, if I knew you well, and had your game tonight, YOU BET I'd call an IP! (First chance I had with no runners on and your DD pitches a BALL.) ;)

LMBO!!! You guys crack me up!! :D

No one has ever posted a more meaningful post with just smileys and no words than Mick just did. Bravo Mick!

:confused: Did I say something wrong?

Nope
 

Nope, coachfanmom, you are fine. You have added a ray of sunshine to this board.

Someone else, however, is trying to rain us out...

Re: Nope
 

Agreed. What you missed was the rude comment that our moderator edited out.

Three rays...
 

...to be exact. Coach. Fan. Mom.

:)

:o:o awwwwwwwww shucks!!! and here I sat thinking that I had broken some Golden rule among Umps! Thanks you guys!!! Makes me wanna go change my name to Ray....hehehehe

What the others said....
 

coachfanmom (<I>or is it Ray?</I>),
Yer good !
Glad to have you participating.
mick

It's been my pleasure:D.....you guys were great to help me during my melt down!! hahaha!!! Glad I stumbled upon ya....now ya stuck with me I'm afraid..;)

:DRay:D

Or "Sunny." http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/wink_2.gif

Hey!! I LIKE that!! Sunny it is ;)