LBR

[rwest]

Couple questions on the look back rule.

Scenario 1:

R1 at 2nd. She's off the base at the release of the pitch. The pitcher has the ball in her glove and in the circle. R1 heads back to 2nd. Now, before R1 makes it to 2nd, the pitcher puts the ball and glove between her legs in order to fix her hair. Can the runner now advance to 3rd or once she's committed to going back to 2nd must she continue to 2nd? In other words, is the LBR off now that the pitcher no longer possesses the ball?

Scenario 2:

BR rounds 1st to the left and heads for 2nd, she then stops. The rule book says that she is committed to 2nd. If she goes back to 1st, do we rule her out on LBR or does the defense have to tag her out? They can't step on 2nd for the out, because its not a force, correct?

Scenario 3:

The rule book says that once the runner stops at a base, they can not leave the base. Does the pitcher have to have possession of the ball within the circle before this takes effect? Suppose R1 at 1st steals second on a pass ball and stops at second. She does not round the base. Now suppose before the pitcher has the ball in the circle she steps off the base. Is she out?

Thanks!
Randall

[Dakota]

General comments.

The LBR is in effect only when the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle and the BR (if applicable) has reached 1st base.

The LBR has no "history." When it is off, it is off for all runners and whatever they did or did not do prior to the rule being off does not matter.

When it is on, it is applied individually per runner depending on what that runner is doing.

Originally posted by rwest
Couple questions on the look back rule.

Scenario 1:

R1 at 2nd. She's off the base at the release of the pitch. The pitcher has the ball in her glove and in the circle. R1 heads back to 2nd. Now, before R1 makes it to 2nd, the pitcher puts the ball and glove between her legs in order to fix her hair. Can the runner now advance to 3rd or once she's committed to going back to 2nd must she continue to 2nd? In other words, is the LBR off now that the pitcher no longer possesses the ball?

The rule is off since the pitcher no longer has control of the ball. The runner can do whatever the runner wants to do. No history.

Originally posted by rwest
Scenario 2:

BR rounds 1st to the left and heads for 2nd, she then stops. The rule book says that she is committed to 2nd.

No, it doesn't. If she rounds, she is allowed one stop and then she must immediately either proceed to 2nd or go back to 1st. Either way, it is a tag play.

Originally posted by rwest
Scenario 3:

The rule book says that once the runner stops at a base, they can not leave the base. Does the pitcher have to have possession of the ball within the circle before this takes effect? Suppose R1 at 1st steals second on a pass ball and stops at second. She does not round the base. Now suppose before the pitcher has the ball in the circle she steps off the base. Is she out?

No, she is not out. The rule is not in effect.

[rwest]

Originally posted by Dakota
General comments.

The LBR is in effect only when the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle and the BR (if applicable) has reached 1st base.

The LBR has no "history." When it is off, it is off for all runners and whatever they did or did not do prior to the rule being off does not matter.

When it is on, it is applied individually per runner depending on what that runner is doing.

The rule is off since the pitcher no longer has control of the ball. The runner can do whatever the runner wants to do. No history.

No, it doesn't. If she rounds, she is allowed one stop and then she must immediately either proceed to 2nd or go back to 1st. Either way, it is a tag play.

No, she is not out. The rule is not in effect.

Dakota,

I had an error in my previous post in describing scenario number 2. I should have said that she overruns first and then turns to the left and heads for 2nd. She then stops. The rule book says she is committed to 2nd. Now, with those corrections in mind, if she returns to 1st, do we call her out on LBR or wait until the defense tags her out? Assuming the defense has to tag her out, if they fail to do so before the next legal/illegal pitch, is the runner then safe? Can she be tagged out while on 1st since she was committed to 2nd? Also, do these rules regarding overruning 1st base only apply when the pitcher has the ball in the circle?

I assume so since it is under the LBR. However, it seems that this would not occur very often since the pitcher would seldom have the ball in her possession within the circle before the runner has made it to 1st. The defense would have to get the ball to the pitcher very quickly. Not saying it's impossible.

Also, does it matter which happens first, the overrunning of first or the pitcher having possession of the ball in the circle? In otherwords, suppose the batter-runner overruns 1st and turns to the left. Suppose she heads directly for 2nd then stops. What if this all happens before the pitcher has the ball in the circle? Does the rule apply.

Sorry for so many detail questions on this. I'm just trying to understand it in all its variations.

Thanks!
Randall


[Edited by rwest on May 16th, 2005 at 01:44 PM]

[pollywolly60]

Don't have my rule book with me, but isn't there a difference here between FED and ASA? I'm thinking in ASA if the ball is in the glove between the legs, the pitcher is NOT considered to have control of the ball in the circle, but in FED the pitcher IS considered to have control of the ball.

[scottk_61]

In Fed, as long as the ball isn't rolling around on the ground, or in a glove on the ground.
The Pitcher is considered to have control (while inside the circle) and the LBR is in effect.
She can even set the ball in the glove on her foot and still have the LBR in effect.

Stupid rule interp, but there it is.

[MrRabbit]

Scenario 1:

Just a thought, since R1 never returned to second base to complete the original return to the base on the LBR could you have appeal play at second base for not returning? This would apply to ASA only, since in FED control was never given up.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by MrRabbit
Scenario 1:

Just a thought, since R1 never returned to second base to complete the original return to the base on the LBR could you have appeal play at second base for not returning? This would apply to ASA only, since in FED control was never given up.

No. Don't confuse the LBR requirement to not stop/reverse with a force or such. Remember, once the LBR is off, it is off. It has no memory. The runner is immediately free to reverse directions, etc. No requirement to continue on to the base committed under the LBR - since the LBR is no longer in force.

[mcrowder]

Why hasn't this been mentioned: Sitch 1: "She's off the base at the release of the pitch."

No pitch. Runner is out.

Note regarding some of the commentary --- LBR is NEVER an appeal. It's an out at the time of the violation - no appeal necessary (or allowed).

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Why hasn't this been mentioned: Sitch 1: "She's off the base at the release of the pitch."

No pitch. Runner is out.

I took that to mean she did the usual runner thing - timed with the release, not before.

Although it could be read that way - that she was off the base before the release. In that case, I agree - dead ball, no pitch, runner out.

[mcrowder]

AH! I see, said the blind man.

I can see how that's probably what he meant. My bad.

[rwest]

I thought I was clear. That's what I get for thinking! I did mean that she was off base legally after the release.