12U : Nobody on Nobody Out. No Double base at First.

Batter hit a shot into the gap on left center field.

F3 is standing on 1B Prior to BR reaching 1B causing BR to miss 1B. BU and PU Both Signal Obstruction.

BR Takes a wide turn around 1st and is safe (Played on late tag) at 2nd.

Time is called and Defensive Coach appeals the runner missing 1B.

What would be your call?

This is why I always announce OBS and the award even when the runner safely achieves the base I was going to award her. After the award, the baserunner CAN go back, touch first, and come back to 2nd. A savvy coach will have her do just that.

If I announce OBS, and the award, and the runner does not retouch - she's out on appeal.

Here I am at work without my ASA book at hand (again). But...when the ball is dead, doesn't the BR have to be given the opportunity to complete her baserunning obligations before an appeal may be made?

Yes - you can't allow the appeal until it's obvious that the runner is finished.

Speaking ASA, nothing (yet.) The coach may not make this appeal.

True, but if the runner has stopped on a base (and with OBS it is delayed dead, and not dead unless you actually NEED to award bases), once the defense requests and is granted TIME, by definition, the runner has completed her baserunning (otherwise, you would not have granted TIME, right?)

The dead ball appeal would be heard at this point, but not from the coach.

Nope, if you make the award, you have already deteremined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements

Quote:

If I announce OBS, and the award, and the runner does not retouch - she's out on appeal.

My suggestion would be to let the play end. If it is apparent all play is finished, I would then kill the ball.
I would wait a few seconds (if defense starts to say something, I will hold up my hand in a gesture meant to wait. During this 3-5 seconds, if the runner makes no attempt to return or coach makes no attempt to have her return, I will accept the appeal and rule appropriately.

Not looking for cheap outs or trying to hurry the game along. Just trying to keep control, avoid confusion and make sure every happens when and where it is supposed to happen.

"Nope, if you make the award, you have already deteremined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements."

Not sure I understand your point here, Mike. When I make the award, I'm informing the runner (and her coaches) what base she is entitled to, due to the OBS. Your statement is confusing --- what if runner only made it to 2nd, and you award third? Surely making the award of third doesn't imply that I've "determined the runner has completed and is satisfied with her running requirements" So why would it imply that if the award happened to coincide with the base she attained.

What if she overruns my protection, and is safe anyway. Runner overruns/OBS at 1st base, I'm protecting to 2nd... ball gets away and she makes it to third. I still need to announce the OBS, and the award of 2nd base. She can stay at 3rd (and then be out on appeal at 1st) or she can (if the coach is smart, and saw the missed base) return, touch 1st, and go to her awarded base.

The award happens AFTER play has stopped, not during. The runner is then allowed "ample opportunity" to finish her baserunning duties before any appeal can be heard.

"During this 3-5 seconds, if the runner makes no attempt to return or coach makes no attempt to have her return," Why would runner return if you did not announce any award. Why would runner think that returning during a dead ball period is even allowed if you did not announce any award. Runner likely has no idea you called OBS, and even if she did --- if you don't announce the award, she has no idea where you are allowing her to go (even if she DID return to touch first). None of this sequence makes any sense.

From Previous Post:

"12U : Nobody on Nobody Out. No Double base at First.
Batter hit a shot into the gap on left center field.
F3 is standing on 1B Prior to BR reaching 1B causing BR to miss 1B. BU and PU Both Signal Obstruction.
BR Takes a wide turn around 1st and is safe (Played on late tag) at 2nd. Time is called and Defensive Coach appeals the runner missing 1B.
What would be your call?"

I should have said. After attempted tag the ball was returned to circle and all play ceased. Coach asks for time and time was granted.

I wasn't on the field but the two officials that were posed this question to the UIC at the end of the day.

How can you call the runner out on appeal when the intent of the rule is to reduce the amount of contact on the field? The runner avoided contact but missed the base due to the defensive person standing on the base. In order for the runner to make the base they would have had to run over the defensive person.

What’s to stop a defensive coach from telling his girls on a hard shot to stand on the bag and Obstruct to see if the BR will miss the base and then just appeal the call after the ball is returned to the circle?

Though this may be incorrect to some but in my opinion the girl missed first base due to the Obstruction and due the nature of the hit, I would award her 2nd.

If she had gone back to first after missing the base and then proceeded to second and was played upon I would have killed the play and if the play was not close I would awarded her 1st.

If the play was close I would have killed it and awarded her 2nd.

Then, Rattlehead, you are completely misunderstanding the enforcement portion of the OBS rule, which has been beaten like a dead horse recently. I won't regurgitate the entire thing... but:

At the moment of OBS, the umpire is required to decide (right then and there) what base the runner is protected to (i.e. awarded). As specifically stated in ASA rule and casebook (and ISF, debeau! :) ), subsequent action should NOT alter the initial protection as judged by the umpire at the time of OBS.

Now, to answer your comments in specific:

"What’s to stop a defensive coach from telling his girls on a hard shot to stand on the bag and Obstruct to see if the BR will miss the base and then just appeal the call after the ball is returned to the circle?"

-----What stops them is that they lose the ability to get this runner out at 2nd base, which may be possible on a hard shot. MOST runners will still hit first base on the way through and end up taking a very wide turn because of the fielder standing on the bag - so in MOST cases, this perceived bonus of a shot at an appeal never materializes. The other problem for defense is the possibility that BU may award 3rd (or they may find an umpire who misunderstands enforcement, and after a stand-up play at 2nd, awards 3rd improperly).

Though this may be incorrect to some but in my opinion the girl missed first base due to the Obstruction and due the nature of the hit, I would award her 2nd.

----- You SHOULD award 2nd, due to the nature of the hit.

If she had gone back to first after missing the base and then proceeded to second and was played upon I would have killed the play and if the play was not close I would awarded her 1st.

----- This goes to what I said above. Now YOU are penalizing the runner because of the OBS. If YOU felt she would have made 2nd without the OBS, give her 2nd. Period. No further debate necessary... her returning to first does NOT alter your initial assessment.

If the play was close I would have killed it and awarded her 2nd.

----- Again - the closeness (or existence!) of the play at 2nd should have absolutely nothing to do with where you protect this runner to, and what base you award.

To make an award, the ball must be dead. When the ball becomes dead, the runner must be given every chance to complete their running assignments. Once you are satisfied that the runner has completed their assignments, then they can accept the appeal.

You are correct, they can go back after the award. I had that confused with 8.5.G.Effect. However. as a matter of caution, I would still use my progress as a timeline to make sure you have all your ducks in a row.

Even though the runner is allowed to complete their running duties during a dead ball period, there must be some point where the defense can confidently make an appeal without fear of the runner returning.

Quote:

"During this 3-5 seconds, if the runner makes no attempt to return or coach makes no attempt to have her return," Why would runner return if you did not announce any award. Why would runner think that returning during a dead ball period is even allowed if you did not announce any award. Runner likely has no idea you called OBS, and even if she did --- if you don't announce the award, she has no idea where you are allowing her to go (even if she DID return to touch first). None of this sequence makes any sense.

First of all you never award bases on obstruction if the runner reaches the base you thought they would have reached safely. Since it is a delayed dead ball call, no out, drop the arm, no call.

If they miss first because of the obstruction it is their responsibility to go back and touch it. Since we make a decision as to the base they would have reached when obstruction occurs. You as a umpire are not required to let then know that they were obstructed unless you have a out.

Second since they were safe the ball is alive, so if they reach the awarded base and are safe and the coach yells that they missed first, offense better move fast to get back to first or the defense makes a live ball appeal. Or the defensive coach gets time called if the runner makes no attempt to return to missed base and make a dead ball appeal for the missed base and you call them out on the appeal..

Also if they do make it back to first safely during the live ball, that is the base they are going to get.

The live ball appeal is a good point, but the offered scenario specifically noted the ball was dead.

Quote:

Also if they do make it back to first safely during the live ball, that is the base they are going to get.

No, I don't believe this is so as if the runner is protected to a certain base due to the OBS, they will (or, at least, should) still receive that base once the play is over.

Based on what?

Speaking ASA, the judgment as to the protected base was made at the time of the OBS. It is improper interpretation of the rule's application to now re-judge the protected base due to the missed base.

I would never call time on the obstruction unless the batter runner is called out or I'm going to award bases beyond the base that the runner was on, it is not proper mechanics.

Also missing first on the obstruction does not give her second again if she does manage to retouch first safely. The runner must still run the bases in the proper manner. If I had called obstruction at first and the runner goes back to touch it and does not attempt second I will have a dead ball and award the base I think they would have obtained. The runner gives up second base were they failed to run the bases in the proper manner. So if she gets back to first safely on the missed base I'm leaving them there.

TO IRISHMAFIA
Originally posted by MrRabbit

Second since they were safe the ball is alive, so if they reach the awarded base and are safe and the coach yells that they missed first, offense better move fast to get back to first or the defense makes a live ball appeal.

Misunderstanding I was referring to the runner being safe at second.

What is your take on give the runner second again after they safely got back to first. see my thoughts above.

Thanks for your input in advance.

Rabbit

If, on the initial obstruction, you judge the runner would have achieved 2B had there been no obstruction, the base award is not changed due to the runner returning to retouch the missed base.

It is the proper mechanic. You cannot make an award during a live ball. You must kill the ball when all obvious play is done or the obstructed runner has been put out.

Quote:

Also missing first on the obstruction does not give her second again if she does manage to retouch first safely. The runner must still run the bases in the proper manner. If I had called obstruction at first and the runner goes back to touch it and does not attempt second I will have a dead ball and award the base I think they would have obtained. The runner gives up second base were they failed to run the bases in the proper manner. So if she gets back to first safely on the missed base I'm leaving them there.

Well, it's your judgment, but if at the initial obstruction you believed the runner would have made 2B had the obstruction not occurred, that is where the runner should be placed. Believe it or not, there is no requirement for a runner to touch the bases when running them in legal order. They are subject to appeal, but that should not be part of your judgment as to how far the runner would have advanced had the obstruction not occurred.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I thought there was a distinction with regard to OBS that <i>caused</i> a runner to miss a base, in other words, prevented a runner from touching a base.

Example 1:

Abel hits a ball off the fence, rounds 1B, and on the way to 2B trips over F4. Abel then gets up and continues to run. Abel then misses 2B and ends up at 3B.

In this case, though Abel could not be put out between 1B and 2B, the miss of 2B could still be appealed.

Example 2:

Abel hits a ball off the fence and is trying for a home run. F5 is standing inside 3B such that Abel collides with F5, whose presence prevents Abel from touching the base, even though she tried to do so. Abel then scores.

I thought that in this case an appeal of Abel's miss of 3B was not to be upheld since the OBS prevented Abel from touching the base.

Is this correct?

BTW, I've seen that play occur in men's SP.

Perfectly good examples of why it IS the proper mechanic to call time after a play that included OBS, and announce the award, EVEN if the runner achieved or passed the award you were going to give.

Regarding the aforementioned live-ball appeal... this is a play on the OBS'd runner. Just like if they were tagged out before the base you were protecting them to, you call dead ball at the time of this appeal, and announce the base you are awarding. Runners are allowed ample opportunity to complete their baserunning responsibities when an award is made, and this includes returning to retouch a missed base (whether this missed base was caused by the OBS or not!). Once it's obvious the runner is finished running, THEN a dead-ball appeal can be heard if the runner never retouched.

If you disagree with any of this, PLEASE site the rule, and not just opinion.

OK.

I disagree with the premise that the obstruction prevented the runner from touching. It delayed the touch and the runner may not have wanted to take the time, but the runner is still required to touch. 8-5-B. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball call. As far as killing the ball to make the award of the base the runner is on (or even more confusing, to make the "award" of a base the runner has advanced beyond) is nowhere to be found, so citing a rule that is nonexistant is a bit difficult. In the obstruction rule, the ball is declared dead if the runner is put out prior to reaching the protected base (8-5-B-2). Otherwise, the rule says twice the ball remains live. (8-5-B-3 and 8-5-B EFFECT.)No, no, no. 8-5-B, runners are still required to touch all bases. EVEN IF OBSTRUCTED! OR, they can be put out by PROPER APPEAL - a live ball appeal is a proper appeal. Unless the fielder is lying prone across the base and physically preventing the runner from touching any part, the runner must touch the base. 8-5-B.

Maybe I'm thinking of OBR.

Believe it or not, after I posted my question, I had such plays THREE times in one game Monday night.

Runner from 2B, trying to score on a hit to center, obstructed at 3B and in running around the fielder missed the bag.

Later in the same game. Runner obstructed BOTH and 3B and at home on the same play (F5 standing on the front of 3B and same with F2 at home). Runner missed both bases, and in each case I'd say the fielder (apparently irrelevantly) "prevented" the touch in that the runner would have had to get tangled up with the fielder to touch the base.

Luckily for me, in no case did anyone appeal.

<b>Unless the fielder is lying prone across the base and physically preventing the runner from touching any part, the runner must touch the base. 8-5-B.</b>

Is this a rule or opinion?

[Edited by greymule on May 19th, 2005 at 01:40 PM]

Opinion. Or, in umpire-speak.... interpretation! ;)

I can see your point that in most cases the fielder didn't necessarily PREVENT the touching of the base... But that is irrelevant.

An example to illustrate my point.

Both situations - no outs, no one on. Batter hits what umpire will eventually rule is a likely triple. F1 is moving to back up catcher and watching the ball, BR watching coach. They collide. BU rules OBS and decides on 3rd as the protection. Batter completely misses first base, through no fault of the fielders at all. Coach sees this.

Sitch 1 - BR makes it to 2nd and stops.

Both you and I would then call Dead Ball, announce OBS, and award 3rd base. Coach tells runner to come back and touch first, which she IS allowed to do, and runner then touches 2nd and advances to third. Completely legal, no issues.

Sitch 2 - BR makes it to 3rd and stops.

I would then call Dead Ball, announce OBS, and award 3rd base. Coach tells runner to come back and touch first, which she IS allowed to do, and runner then touches 2nd and advances to third. Completely legal, and again, no issues.

YOU (several of you) would ignore the OBS because she achieved the base you expected her to. Runner is now liable to be put out at first base on appeal.

So the way you are doing OBS penalizes the runner because she advanced an extra base during the normal course of play. Why? By what rule do you justify this?